Gut Health, Anxiety, Brain Fog & Functional Nutrition: The Gut-Brain Connection Explained

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor podcast, where I hope faith, science, and holistic healing intersect. I'm your host, Diana S. Rice, licensed mental health counselor, integrative mental health professional, and someone deeply passionate about helping people explore healing in a way that is thoughtful, grounded, and whole person-centered.

Today's guest is someone I was recently introduced to through one of my favorite local nonprofits, Fruitful Field. I had the opportunity to hear one of her students, Savannah, share a presentation on Florida garden medicinals and traditional healing practices. And honestly, I was struck by the depth, intentionality, and respect for both science and ancient wisdom that came through that conversation.

Savannah spoke so highly of today's guest that I am I immediately knew this was someone I wanted to learn from and introduce to all of you. In a world where so many people are struggling with anxiety, burnout, brain fog, inflammation, chronic stress, nervous system dysregulation, and disconnection from their bodies, I believe it's important that we create space for nuanced conversations around mental health, nutrition, integrative care, and healing traditions from different cultures and generations.

And I want to say this carefully and respectfully. Throughout history, human beings across cultures have used food, herbs, movement, nature, community, and other healing modalities to support wellness. That does not mean every practice is automatically safe, effective, or ethical. And yes, people in any field, whether medical, spiritual, psychological, or holistic, can misuse influence or cause harm.

But, I also believe we should be willing to ask thoughtful questions, stay curious, examine the evidence, honor cultural wisdom, and have conversations without immediately labeling everything woo-woo, dangerous, or unworthy of discussion. That's part of what this podcast is about, breaking stigma, encouraging discernment, and helping the next generation learn how to think critically, compassionately, and holistically about health and healing.

And that is why I'm honored today to welcome Dr. Annie Lin. Dr. Lin is an assistant professor in the Department of Nutrition at the Dr. Kiran or Kiran C. Patel College of Osteopathic Medicine at Nova Southeastern University. Go Sharks! She is a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, Certified Nutritionist, Licensed Dietitian Nutritionist, Functional Medicine Certified Practitioner, and is also certified in cupping therapy, which I love, and Hijama.

I think I'm saying that, and that's something new to me, so I can't wait to find that what that is. Born and raised in New York. Yay! In a traditional household influenced by traditional Chinese medicine, Dr. Lin grew up with a perspective where food, herbs, lifestyle, and wellness practices were woven into everyday life.

Her work today continues to bridge bridge conventional science, clinical nutrition, functional medicine, and integrative approaches to support personalized whole person health. So, Dr. Lin, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to be here.

Yeah. So, your journey. Let's talk about how you got to this place in this moment as both as an assistant professor and functional nutrition practitioner. Can you share your journey into this field and what led you to focus on the connection between nutrition, the gut, and mental health?

Absolutely. So, it's really amazing how things come around full circle. You know, as I had mentioned, I was born and raised in New York um to Chinese immigrants and I was a firstborn. So, I grew up in a very traditional TCM-influenced way of thinking about health, you know?

I love that.

Food is medicine was kind of embedded. I would go to the TCM doctor, have my tongue analyzed, or my mom would go to the Chinese pharmacy, pick up an herbal formula, come home and boil it, you know, and drink this. Don't ask any questions.

I would watch my father, you know, start his day with tai chi and hot water. So, um you know, I grew up with that kind of imprinted, but growing up in New York in Queens, um I was also exposed to so many other cultures.

Yes, I love that. So, you understand Okay, I was sorry.

Yes, absolutely.

I get excited cuz I Yeah, okay, keep going. Sorry.

I understand that New York vibe. Yes.

We were all like We're all like first-generation born, but all our parents in the building were all from different countries.

Yes, and I really appreciated that, you know? So, I I grew up with a lot of like black and Caribbean and Latino communities. And so, looking at my upbringing and then comparing it with theirs, and I saw how food and family traditions and resilience and culture, but they were all kind of woven together.

And that shaped my perspective because it helped me understand that, you know, wellness and health is not a one-size-fits-all.

That's right.

Food is cultural, healing is cultural, and the way that people care for themselves is is so deeply rooted. So, I I was always fascinated by the human body and and health. You know, I I loved learning about health. I was always reading books and I actually started to um find my way forging a path towards medicine.

Traditional Chinese medicine wasn't very popular at the time, but that's what I believed in. I didn't really fully embrace conventional medicine 100%. I kind of wanted a little bit of both.

Mhm.

But, it wasn't really popular then. So, I started just with the foundations. I studied biology and sociology. I like the physical science and the social science. So, biology helped me understand the body and sociology helped me understand the person, you know, and like the environment and the choices and the lived experience that makes that person, right?

And that combination sort of helped me understand health, you know, in an integrative way, before that was I even knew that was a term. Right?

Yeah.

So, I I ended up initially life happened. I didn't go down the the medical route, but I ended up going to education

Mhm.

and um I I became a teacher for high school high school science. And years later I got married and my my husband his health journey led me down deeply into studying nutrition more formally. He was chronically ill for so many years.

Mhm.

He went through a liver transplant and it was complicated with cardiac arrest and strokes and things like that and at one point his prognosis was not was very limited. So, long story short nutrition became a big part of his healing

Wow.

and a way to support him and his recovery. So, it became really very deeply personal for me. So, that's what I meant it came around full circle because I started off like that, but I went into education and looking at society, but then I came back full circle into this integrative model of health that I grew up in.

Yeah.

Um and then to answer your second question about the the the gut um brain axis and mental health and and um while I was teaching middle school, when I was doing during my graduate school years, I was teaching fifth grade um fifth or eighth grade.

And things started to connect. So, I was studying at Maryland University of Integrative Health. So, they already had that integrative and functional lens. And then I started noticing I was a homeroom teacher for fifth grade and I started noticing what the students were eating or not eating, you know, on a daily basis as a as a pattern.

You know, ultra-processed foods, coming to school without breakfast, sugary drinks, skipping meals totally, you know, skipping their lunch and noticing their um symptoms and behavior. So, like, you know, their moodiness, their mood swings, they're not focusing well, their behavior challenges, you know? So, of course behavior is very complex.

A child is never just, you know, the bad child.

Right.

But studying nutrition and, you know, knowing what I knew, like the the brain and the body are not being properly nourished. Students are coming to school without breakfast, without stabilized blood sugar, without key nutrients, with, you know, gut issues, stomach aches. How can we expect them to sit still and focus and thrive?

Mhm.

So, that was one of the first places where I saw that connection in real life.

Yeah.

You know? So, I tried

Uh uh I just want to let you know I I feel you because this is when I was at Nova, right, working on I did a 1-year internship at a public school, an alternative public school, and I noticed the same thing. And this was like elementary all the way to high school, and it was but I saw that.

And I'm and I questioned it with the psychiatrist because of course it was like, "Oh, you need to figure out the meds, the meds, you know, and and the balancing." Because they got kicked out of their schools to go into the school. And I'm like, "But they're coming in with Cheetos and Mountain Dew, and that and then you're saying that they're hyper and and they're angry."

And I didn't know about nutrition, but I kind of like knew like, "Wait a minute, this is not a They're children."

Right. Yeah, and you know what was the big takeaway for for me and even for the teachers and the parents, I started thankfully I had a very supportive administration. I was I was basically allowed, I was supported to um weave in nutrition-focused lessons along with the science, you know, so I I had autonomy to do that.

So I had little challenges, you know, eat the rainbow, how many colors you're eating this week, you know, looking at your bowels, things like that. Um so the students, you know, and they're children, they're like 10 and 11 years old. And so their nutrition improved slightly, you know, for some students, but then their mood improved and their focus improved, their behavior improved.

They became they weren't, you know, getting in trouble anymore. And it's not to say that food fixes everything.

Right.

But food finally became like the reason why the body had more of what it needs to function. So it had the raw material to function well.

Yeah. No, for sure. And it it's just It it amazes me because I do and I had my own personal uh healing journey too understanding because growing up with immigrant parents, they didn't know. And my mom it was a single mom and and she was working all the time.

So, guess what? I had to find food, and if you're like in a food desert or not knowing in a culture that doesn't have the ability to have the healthy rainbow, right? I ate Burger King all the time, and then I was wondering why I was always sick, but I did not put two and two together because these are things that should be taught.

Social emotional learning and nutrition and extra, right? It's like

Absolutely. And I'm so glad you mentioned access because that's a big part of the equation that we don't think about. It's so easy to come up with a checklist of do's and don'ts, but you have to look at the person and their environment and what they're able to access.

Yes. And and and and and teach because you become addicted to all this high and I know you know all this and we're probably going to get there. So, to me, for someone who's new to this concept, how would you explain the gut-brain axis in simple practical terms and why it plays such a key role in anxiety, depression, and over overall mental illness?

So, simply, the gut and the brain are always communicating constantly back and forth. They have a very beautiful relationship. You know, the gut speaks to the brain, the brain speaks to the gut. And I think um intuitively, we all kind of have felt or experienced this, you know, even if we don't have the exact language for it.

You know, what happens when you get nervous? You know, you get butterflies in your stomach. Or if you feel stressed out or you get upset, you might lose your appetite or get nauseous. Some people even get reflux, you know, when they get very tense.

You know, or people get changes in their in their bowel movements. So, that's the brain affecting the gut. Um but it also goes the other way, in the other direction. If the gut is irritated, if there's inflammation, if someone is constipated, they're not absorbing well, they're not digesting well, the gut is going to send signals to the brain, and that's going to affect the person's mood and their energy and their focus.

You know, so it's um And there's several different pathways where the gut can influence the the brain um and and mental wellness.

Mhm.

Um the nervous system, the immune system, inflammation, hormones are here. Hormones are communicators. Hormones will deeply impact the way that we feel.

Right.

Um blood sugar, you know, absorption. Even compounds that the gut bacteria are producing itself, you know, the metabolites. You know, so gut health is off, it can affect so many different systems.

Yeah. No, and this is what I loved about when I started learning about traditional Chinese medicine back in the day when I first went to an acupuncturist and she was straight from China. She hardly spoke English, but she was able to teach still and tell me what she was doing cuz I I was scared.

You know, that's the thing when we're so ethnocentric that

and and something comes along and people freak out, and I see it in the in church because this is why I this this podcast was created. I know it's to break stigma in churches and in um the BIPOC community because you were raised in traditional Chinese medicine, but someone on the outside could look at that and be like, "What?

Air?" You know, um or the the the I What I love is a 24-hour clock. That taught me so much about the how the mood and what's happening with the organ and you know, and then when I would try to tell people about it, they're like, "That's new age.

That's woo-woo." And I'm like, "No, why don't you take" and this is why I said what I said in the beginning. I'm like, "Why don't you take a step back and understand if you believe in God, then God created everything that's good."

Right.

And to me, that acupuncture changed my life. Dr. Chen changed I'm going to cry. She changed to life.

Aw, that's so powerful.

Yes. So and then I'm grateful that my brain does have that critical thinking because where I grew up like you where I did learn and I understood that wait like the I remember the the the Hungarian mom that just ate garlic cloves raw.

Yes. Yeah, I there's so many layers to what you just mentioned. Um so you mentioned God and I I'm I'm a very big believer in in you know the one true God and in my faith it's taught that there's a cure for everything.

We may not know the cure. It may not be in our hands in this location. But we should be searching for it and that can come in so many different modalities. Like there's a cure for everything except for death. That's that's the belief.

You know so um traditional Chinese medicine is one way. Ayurveda is another way.

Yeah.

Um we have Unani medicine. We have prophetic medicine. There's so many different approaches and that's not to say that it's it's all going to work for everyone all the time.

Right.

Right but we should be open enough to try it because even though it may not be mainstream medicine with you know randomized control trials that you're looking for but it's been around for centuries that means it works to some to some degree for people.

So why not try it as long as the risk is low and you keep an open mind. We all want better outcomes so if it works you know it works.

Right.

Yeah. I mean and so for me traditional Chinese medicine I know it's what been around for three over 3,000 years?

Yes, over 3,000 years and with good reason.

Yeah and and doesn't chiropractors also like take the same parts of what the points cuz can you explain a little with TCM because you're the my person that really understands TCM to a point of like it maybe explaining it or the clock or whatever, whatever you want to explain.

Sure, sure. So, um traditional Chinese medicine and looking at acupuncture or acupressure in general, it all comes down to harmony and balance. And the body has certain channels where they call them meridians. Um so there are points and it's looked at as a whole system.

So the body is not isolated in silos. Everything works together and the body, the inner body, like the physical body, works and it should be working in harmony with the environment. You know, so that's where the circadian rhythm comes in and we work, we flow, we run we're run by the sun.

So we our hormones, some hormones are more activated in the daytime, some are more in the nighttime and they kind of switch. So there are certain points, um acupressure points or meridians that are focused on in acupuncture. And all that does um is stimulates those points to kind of release what's known as chi or energy flow.

Um reduce stagnation. Uh kind of stimulate what and then if you look at the parallel with conven- in conventional terms, we have now energy medicine, you know, and so and in Islamic medicine it's also taught the same thing with hijama. But it's it's Let's talk about that, too.

Yeah, it's it's called you know, they're called they have different terminology, but it's the same concept. It's balance, it's stimulating circulation, stimulating lymphatic flow and um just being in harmony and we we all get stuck in stagnation from stress, from diet, from, you know, taking in things from the environment, you know, not getting enough sleep.

That happens. It's how we all want to come back to homeostasis, you know? And when the homeostasis is not there, that's when imbalances occur and that's the the root of illnesses. It'll show up clinically.

Right.

Right. And I heard that someone say that like energy medicine or or like even traditional Chinese medicine, it's like the ATP in the cell. If you really want to go sciency with energy, it's to understand that part and then you'll like, "Oh, this is what they were talking about in that culture."

And even Native American Indians or even in the culture like where my mom was from, um you know, she she came from the farms of Popayán. And and so they did not It wasn't the city life where people had more resources. It was more of like you you know, my grandma was an herbalist, right?

And so you you have to learn that God created these plants and things I mean, even in my faith tradition, right? In the Bible where it talks like the trees and and what to eat and and stuff like that is to understand the respect of

Yes.

all creation and I think that's why we're in the mess we're in because it's a lot of human beings instead of having respect of all creation and how we're interconnected, they're just taking for greed, greed, greed and then they're destroying humanity and and the environment and and don't get me started on that one, okay?

I I get so frustrated on that, but

Yeah, it definitely I I agree and taking a step back from all of that and just putting everything what we spoke about in the last few minutes into like a like a bubble, um it all comes down to energy, you know? This the energy of the ATP, um the reason why we're alive is because of of ATP, of energy.

And energy is the reason why we have countries fighting, right? It's everyone Energy is just so valuable. And we are living at a time where we have energy imbalances, metabolic dysfunction, which is basically a you know, a um we're not able to harness or access or utilize the energy from the food.

So, we have you know, metabolic issues.

Yes.

So,

Oh, really? I It's curious. I just got turned on to something called Metabolic Minds, which is which is a whole bunch of psychiatrists who are shifting from the pharmaceutical mindset into understanding what we're talking about right now. And it's called metama metabolicminds.org, and then they have um people that are learning this from different um licensed careers that are wanting to understand more.

And And it is something that is so important if we're going to like heal our next Poor Gen Z. They're so You know what I mean? Just like And Gen Alpha, I'm just like I have my heart goes for them because Well, first of all, I have a Gen Z son, and I have Gen Alpha grandkids.

So, it's just And whatever's coming along, and I'm hoping that they're waking up wanting more truth and getting back to to rhythm.

I think that's a major theme with the the new generations, you know? It definitely is uh you know, when I look at the generation now and and how I grew up, it was a I felt like it was a lot simpler when I was growing up.

Now, it's just kind of complicated and that it's I I do feel like it's hard, you know, for children to grow up in this time in some aspects. But in the other aspects, I feel like they're just so brilliant and innovative. And And uh I can't wait to see what what they're going to how they're going to kind of move the needle, you know?

Because they are really focused on truth.

Yes.

They want truth and they're fed

You see that, too, right? Because you're you're a professor working with that and I get the ones that are really really stressed out as a therapist, you know. So, they hire me. Eight my 18, 19, 20, you know, the ones in college or just got out of college and they they are.

They're long long This is why I said I don't edit because they can sniff that stuff out. They sniff stuff out so much quicker than someone that's like fooled by AI. Like they can and they're longing for that because they have grown up in such edited life or

Yes.

peop- adults telling them this is the truth and then they wake up and they're like, "No, you've been lying to me all this time." Like

Right. Yes. And then one person's truth might not be everyone's truth, you know. So, just really having that open mind and and, you know, finding that that authentic voice inside of you.

Yeah, I love that. So, let's talk about how we can help the listener. If they're listening to us right now, like what are two to three realistic, sustainable changes someone could begin this week to support their brain health, mood, and nervous system through nutrition?

Okay. Um so far as I do want to say that when I speak about nutrition and mood, I don't want to be very reductionist and say that, you know, food is or diet is the cause of all the issues because it can be very real, you know.

Sometimes there's trauma, there's environmental experiences and things like that. But definitely it's a great door and it deserves a seat at um at the at the at the table, you know, for the conversation. Um but when I see someone with, you know, mood disorders or anxiety or um depression, you know, brain fog, I try not to jump to just one cause.

I I look at patterns, you know. So, is is the person skipping meals? Because there's a lot of diet culture that's going on on social media, you know, and a lot of camps. Food camps. Like this is good and that's bad and you got to do it this way and don't do it that way.

You know, so I look at the patterns. Are they skipping meals? Are they, you know, skipping entire food groups? Are they digesting well? Are they sleeping? Sleep's always the elephant in the room. You know, are they going under chronic stress? Um and then what if they are eating, what are they eating?

You know, are they getting the macros, the micros, and the phytonutrients? Do I see signs of inflammation? You know, so I look at patterns and I try to piece it together. That's the functional lens.

Mhm.

And instead of looking at, you know, just a diagnosis. Uh and but one of the biggest common denominators I see is blood sugar instability. So, people might be, you know, doing intermittent fasting and skipping breakfast or or just running on coffee on an empty stomach or under-eating.

And then when they do eat, they're really hungry, so they might be binging. They might be eating a lot of refined carbohydrates. That's going to affect their blood sugar. It's going to be swinging up and down.

Mhm.

And that can show up as anxiety and jitteriness and just being very irritable.

Right.

And not able to focus. So, it's sometimes it's just a matter of getting steady fuel. So, that can be like a very, you know, easy, low-hanging fruit approach. It's like, are you getting enough fuel at the right times? You know, and looking at when they are feeling their symptoms more.

Is it in the afternoon crash? You know, are they waking up feeling refreshed, things like that. Um so, the brain is is very metabolically active. It uses a an incredible amount of energy, but it needs steady energy also and it has to be able to access that energy.

So, if the meals are not consistent and looking at the sleep, if the sleep is not optimal and the blood sugar is not stable, the brain is not going to be able to really focus well.

Mhm.

So, the brain also needs micronutrients, raw materials to um build neurotransmitters, which are little chemicals, you know, that they I call them chemical DMs. You know, they they communicate with each other.

I love that. Oh, your your students would love you.

Yeah, so we talk about nutrition for mental health, and there's there's another term that's coined nutritional psychiatry. You know, we're not just saying eat healthy in in a in some broad sense. We're talking about, you know, the B vitamins, the magnesium, the zinc.

That all helps the Krebs cycle. That helps build and amino acids helps to build the neurotransmitters so that the brain can communicate well. You know, vitamin D, omega-3 fatty acids, all of those are needed. So, that um looking at that basic foundation is usually my first step.

Mhm.

And sometimes that is just a big game-changer. Like, oh, if I just eat that breakfast, or if I just make sure that my meals are a little bit more balanced, um I feel much better.

Right.

yeah, and sometimes it's a little bit deeper. There is some inflammation that's going on because when the body's inflamed, then the the the um the gut is going to send signals, and that's going to affect the person's mood.

Yeah.

And, you know, inflammation is not just a joint issue or a gut issue. It can affect really how someone feels emotionally

Mhm.

and mentally. You know, so I look at gut health and um

How do you look at gut health? Like, what do you do?

Symptoms. So, first I I ask for their symptoms, and usually and gut health really matters because digestion is connected to so many symptoms. If someone is not digesting food, then they're going to be bloated, they're going to be constipated, they're going to have diarrhea, they're going to have um food sensitivities, you know, and [clears throat] then that in turn can affect their appetite and then that becomes this whole vicious cycle.

And if they have that irritation, that irritated gut or intestinal permeability, that might affect their absorption. So, they might be eating, but they're not absorbing. When I was in graduate school, one of my professors said, you know, we all heard you are what you eat, but you know, that's not true.

You are what you uh eat, absorb, break down, and assimilate. I was like, "Huh?"

I get it because you can eat, but if you're not absorbing, you know, it's not able you're not able to utilize nutrients and those nutrients turns into our tissues, to our blood. It becomes ourselves. It becomes us. Which is so fascinating. It's just nothing short of a miracle.

It is. Like when you really go into that rabbit hole of gut health and you understand like what is living in me and how many are living in me and what It kind of like when I first learned that, I was like, "Wow."

Because I had a a Dr. Bernstein and and he helped me a lot with the He's a chiropractic nutritionist. It really changed my life then, too, because like I had so many symptoms, but listen, I had a like a a six on the adverse childhood experience score, okay?

Right.

So, people have to understand the whole This is why I try to get people to understand the holistic situation, like you've been saying. It's not just a one-size-fits-all. It's understanding taking a step back and going, "Okay, I have a 10 on the ACE score, all right?"

So, that means, "Okay, my body's going to really maybe react more." And then now I'm not having enough food of the healthy kind. And it's just It's not a doom and gloom. It's just taking a step back to have that understanding of "Oh, okay, I have a hundred trillion cells.

Maybe I'm It's more or less, I'm not sure. And it all wants to love me. How do I

Yes.

How do I take care of those cells so that I can become a better human while I'm on this earth?

Right. I I love how you said that and thank you for mentioning the um uh the trauma, you know, the piece, the adverse experiences because that is very real. When people hold onto that, sometimes they don't A lot of times they don't realize that they're holding onto that.

It just becomes a part of their fabric and they don't realize how impactful it is. So, when we give, you know, nutrition advice or a protocol, protocols are easy. You can go into AI and it'll just spit out the protocol.

Right.

But we don't we don't nutrition is not meant to be added as another stressor or be to to make a person feel more restricted.

Exactly.

You know, um we should be looking at nourishing. So, you know, aside from, you know, building a better meal and a breakfast, um maybe focusing on not attacking the gut with a very harsh protocol or following, you know, another protocol. Um look at nourishment.

You know, look at adding foods to make to help the body feel safe. You know, so adding colors for instance. I love to add colors because instead of taking foods away, you add foods away. Adding more colorful plant fibers. You know, and each color has a different superpower and then when you combine them together, combine different colors, they have this beautiful synergistic effect.

You know, and they all they bring polyphenols and and um different textures and every culture has healthy foods. I also don't like to I like to decolonize the whole idea of eating clean or eating healthy is just one way.

Mhm.

You know, like nothing against um kale and quinoa. I like kale and quinoa very much, but I didn't grow up on it. I grew up on bok choy, right? Which is in the same family, right? It's it's still a crucifer. So, looking at things that can be added to nourish the body to make the body feel safe while they're, you know, going through if hopefully that if they carry trauma, hopefully they are getting adjunctive care, you know, with a therapist or or physician.

You know, um, hydra- hydration is also very important. It's hydration and minerals, you know, sometimes that that fatigue and those headaches uh, feeling a little bit off is just dehydration.

Yeah, cuz we'll we're we're in a beautiful free country. At the same time, it's goes way too fast. We chew too fast cuz that's something I was taught, the chewing. And I'm like, "What? I do not have time to sit there and chew my food."

This is one of the 20-something whatever chews one bite. And they're like

Yes.

But because and we breathe too fast. So, this is what I've learned from other cultures across the pond, you know, across on the other side of of the world. And it's just to understand like we're in such a hurry here. We're so like go go go go, especially being raised in New York cuz I know you probably felt that.

Like I know

Oh, absolutely. Eating on the go, eating, you know, in the car, you know, catching

and just on the subway. Right. So, that's uh, that's another thing with you know, this the dealing with the stresses of life and if someone is carrying, you know, something extra and you want to help them, you want to um, give them a nutrition or lifestyle piece that would be helpful.

Right.

Um, sometimes it's just, you know, it's totally free. Just coaching them and teaching them how to eat in a very low-stressed state. Cuz digestion will work better when the nervous system feels safe. When someone's uptight, the digestion is going to just be all backed up, too.

So, even something simple like taking few slow breaths before eating and really appreciating, like, where the food came from, how many hands had to be involved in the the growing and harvesting and transportation of this particular healthy food before it gets to your plate, you know?

And then, so sitting down, you know, which is like seems like a no-brainer, but um sitting down, chewing well, as you mentioned, not eating in between tasks, you know? So, the state of our body matters as much as what we're putting into our body.

Yes. Yeah, I mean, being present, right? I think this is why I love in my faith, like we every meal we thank God for it.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, we we also do the same. And again, look, these are traditional practices, right? That we don't need a prescription for. It's just, you know, something very basic that we kind of our we we know we're kind of forgetting about it along the way because we're in such a fast-paced society and we have that instant gratification, like, you know, it's like

And we're sitting there in front of, you know, I think that's what hurts my heart. If if I go to a restaurant and I'm sitting there with my husband, first of all, our phone, like my phone's in my purse.

I'm not going to be that person, but it's the whole family and the kids are on the iPad, the parents, and it's not, you know, I don't want to put guilt and shame on people, but it's like be present with each other because we need each other, especially in communities because we're trying to find answers and truth on a rectangle and we're not meant to carry the whole world in our palm of our hands like that.

Right. And then, we're we're missing the most valuable resource, which is, you know, the human intellect.

Mhm.

That human intellect created all this technology, right? So, how can you rely on all this technology and just ignore the human brain, which we haven't even tapped into 100% yet. Right. Like that's such a resource. You utilize that, you know?

So exciting. No, when I think of the brain, I'm I'm just so it's just marvelous. Neuroplasticity, just how how it works. And I And this is why like if you're listening right now, I would love for you to just take a breath and stop and think about you and your body.

Right? People don't get that chance.

Yes, and how miraculous it is the way that it functions without with no effort of our own. You know, and then how food becomes part of our body.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's I I This is what I tell you when I worked cuz I worked out with alternative teenagers um from alternative high schools. And that's the thing I would try to teach them to slow down in the way they would understand it.

I'm like, you have five senses. Basic. How are you using them?

Right. Yeah. And you know, believe it or not, making small changes like with breath work um or it doesn't have to be fancy,

No, not costly.

Right. Uh or chewing. The people will know And I had my my middle school students try this, you know, how many times do you chew a bite down? And they all posted on the posted. This is really cute. But they um they felt the difference.

They noticed cuz the gut microbiome um the cells and that line the intestinal the the GI tract, they have a very quick turnover because they have such a big job. So within 3 to 5 days, within days, the person will feel a difference.

So they'll And that happened to my husband. When he started to change his his dietary patterns, he felt a difference. He started to get clear-minded, um more focused, and he knew it was from the changes. And they were small changes. They're just small incremental changes.

So a person might feel like they're having less crashes in the afternoon, they're not as shaky or not as irritable, they're not craving as much. And I always tell people to celebrate those small wins because, you know, even better bowel movement, that's a win.

You know, because that's the body's way of responding and the body's communicating with you. You know, healing doesn't have to be so dramatic. It's just slowing down, feeling safer, feeling steadier, feeling more supported and the body will let you know, I like this, you know, I like this vibe.

And listening to it and but I think what happens is people are looking outward too much into like, you know, especially like everybody's gone, you know, carnivore diet, keto ketogenic diet, whatever. Back in the day it was, oh, I forgot the the name of the book, South Beach diet.

I mean, diet, diet, diet, diet, right? And I I try to get people going, how can one size fits all? I do understand like my doctor had to put me on no sugar, no dairy, no gluten. And then he taught me exactly why.

It wasn't like I just listen, I'm like, why? Because that's my biggest question. I'm still like a four-year-old, why? Why?

Right, right.

[clears throat]

But he was able to explain it and that's what I want listeners to understand that just because we might have a beautiful degree on the wall, you know, and we have knowledge and we've done the work and research, but it's up to you.

You're with yourself 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Who would know you the best?

Right. Yeah, exactly.

And you speaking of, you know, diet culture and therapeutic diets cuz in functional medicine we do have a lot of therapeutic diets and sometimes, you know, carnivore diet may be indicated and it might have good outcomes and for another person it might be a total disaster, you know, because you have to look at not just a diagnosis cuz you know, I've um I've seen anecdotally I've seen people on the carnivore diet and they just suddenly feel, you know, more energized and, you know, they're losing weight and things like that.

But in essence, it's an it's a form of an elimination diet.

Mhm.

So, it's eliminating all the processed foods. So, you are going to feel better. And maybe being on, you know, carnivorous or, you know, protein-only foods can be helpful for a short time.

Right.

Um and that's the same for every elimination diet or every therapeutic diet.

Right.

But it doesn't mean it has to be become somebody's permanent identity. You know, and this is where clinical judgment comes into place.

Mhm.

Is this diet good for this person? Um is it How long is this diet going to be good for? And if someone goes on a therapeutic diet like this, it's a therapeutic diet, which really ideally a clinician should be monitoring, you know, the changes, um the reintroduction phase, you know, which is often the hardest part, or are they going to stay restricted for an unknown amount of time?

And that's where the harm comes in. You know, so I always like to have a filter, like is this safe? Is it realistic for this person? Is it personalized for this person?

Right.

And

Personalized.

Yes, and this is Is this going to support this person's health or is it going to just create more fear or more overwhelm? Especially if they have a history of disordered eating and things like that. You don't want to prescribe a therapeutic diet or just encourage them to follow it and they're not going to be monitored and they're just going to, you know, feel more overwhelmed.

Yes. No, I agree and I'm not a nutritionist, but because I am certified integrative mental health professional, I've learned about how to talk to my clients in order for to be personalized.

Yes.

Because I do more of like the A score and the trauma work and you know, just to get them to understand like, oh, you're feeling stuff is coming up and you've been ignoring it for decades, you know, or something like that. Or just but it it does it starts with rituals and and nourish I love the words you're using because people don't hear that often enough.

They hear very clinical or very like I don't know, harsh, angry words

Right.

and makes them feel bad already, like guilty and shameful and I'm just like no, it's okay. Like I'm not telling you to stop the cookies. I'm telling you

Right.

to just

That's another thing. We have to remove the shame around food and choices and you know, it's nutrition should be empowering. You know, this is what is nourishing you and giving you life. So it should and food is not just you know, healing and medicine.

Food is culture and joy and memories.

Yeah.

You know, so I I really love holding space for traditional wisdom while also exploring emerging cutting-edge science. I just love that bridge that that integrative lens and also being honest about what we're still learning because it's always evolving.

Exactly.

so we can't know everything and we just have to, you know, have an open mind, take it all in and you know, see if it's safe, see if it's healing, see if it's holistic and see if it's personalized and it's really if it's if it's is it hurting or is it helping the person?

Yes. Right. And and I guess with my work I try to get people to go back to their intuition and their understand because that has been and I know in in spaces and like high controlling religion or or spaces where you're told, especially as a woman and and a woman of color like, you know, what I mean?

Like you have no right to we own you. I don't know how else to say it.

have your own faculties and you know things are taught to you by you know, it has to be done this way, absolutely.

Right. And that comes from all different walks of life. I've had people from all cultures come to me and it's just going back to listening and they're like, "What do you think?" I'm like, "No, this is not you didn't hire me to think for what I [clears throat] think."

I'm teaching you how to critically think and not be scared of that.

Right. Yes, decolonize any of those kind of, you know, preconceived notions and you know, just really honor yourself. You know, like God created you and that's that's enough to be so valuable as a human being, as a creation.

And that's why I start every podcast, "Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human."

I love it.

To to make them understand you're a human being and we have to learn to be responsible for ourselves in a healthy manner because it you know, it could turn very bad and then you got people that are like psychopaths out there, so.

So, as someone teaching future health care professionals, right? I love that and what do you wish more clinicians understood about the role of nutrition and mental health and whole person care?

Um so, definitely nutrition and health is more than just about weight. You know, the whole weight centric model is is so outdated and it's so harmful. So, um nutrition and health is is definitely more than that, you know, focusing on, you know, a a certain body size or a certain number.

Absolutely. There are people who are metabolically healthy who have a higher BMI and a larger body size. There are people who are in you know, have a normal BMI, but they're metabolically unhealthy. You know, so it's um food is more than just calories or macros or, you know, telling someone to eat healthier.

Mhm.

Um nutrition should be empowering. And it does affect us across the board, you know, blood sugar, nutrition influences inflammation, digestion, hormones, microbiome, you know, our energy production. So, if someone is struggling with anxiety or mood disorders or fatigue or something like that, even though nutrition is not the whole answer, but it's it should definitely be part of the conversation because it does have that impact.

Yes, it does.

And um what else? Uh I often tell students that food food is not just um energy, it's not just fuel, it's information. It's giving the body information on how to react, how to respond, you know, uh raw materials. It can support healing or it can also do the opposite.

It can add to the stress that the body's already carrying. You know, so we really need um to understand nutrition advice in a more holistic approach for it to be very practical for a person. So, thinking of access, thinking about cultural sensitivity. Um telling someone to eat clean or follow, you know, this diet may not mean much if we don't understand their cooking skills, their culture, their family responsibilities, their role in the house, you know.

Right.

Um or their relationship with food.

Mhm.

So, food is deeply personal, it's deeply cultural, and we have to meet people where they are. You know, so I think that we should, as clinicians, learn how to be more critical as as you touched on a few times, instead of just, you know, we need to look beyond the protocol.

Right.

You know, ask better questions.

Exactly. Oh, no, you're right on. Ask asking better questions. And I'm I'm grateful to hear that you're out there teaching the next generation of a holistic approach and I see that movement happening and it's just I want listeners to slow down and really understand themselves.

You're right, their culture, what they're needing, nature out there, hug a tree, get out cuz there's so many people working. Like I work from home. I work on this laptop, right? And then I'm a podcaster. I'm in this office right here way too much, but I also have purposely had to stop and when I eat I go outside and I'm out in my butterfly garden.

That's so beautiful because you're eating with intention. Right? Yes, and you're enjoying and embracing the whole experience, you know, so that's that's um that's beautiful.

That's important for us to to get give them permission to stop without guilt because I know culturally too, like we said, like we're both second generation here. First gen or I don't even know how it goes now. If someone comes over, they're first generation, whatever.

But we're we're from immigrants. Right? And so the pressure of that growing up in an immigrant family was like we came to this country to give you an opportunity. Hurry, hurry, get it, get it, you know, American dream, American dream. And I have to now be like and I work with a lot of people from different cultures, Dr.

Lynn, and I have to tell them I'm like, okay, yeah, because we're in that between state of okay, we have a culture at home and then but in the out there in the schools and everything it's very not our culture and so we had to learn to assimilate into the hurryness of like, okay, we got to go into the capitalistic mindset and and get as much as we can and I want to people to understand that that is not healthy.

It's not healthy and it's kind of, you know, it undervalues who we are as a whole person, you know, so I have a a a part of me is my upbringing from my parents, but their lived experience is not my lived experience. So, their lessons I took some let some gems from the lessons that they learned, but I have my own path.

You know, I have a different environment and you know, like we all do. And you know, paralleling that with the concept of integrative and functional medicine that we are all our bodies are interconnected. So, like my my gut is connected to my brain, connected to my heart, connected to my hormones.

We are also interdependent with each other in society and even, you know, clinically, nutrition should be part of collaborative care.

Yes.

It doesn't It will not ever replace a therapy or medication or medical treatment, right? But it can strengthen that foundation that the other therapies are working on. You know, so that is I always I always try to emphasize that. Like, be part of the health care team and assert yourself that you are part of the interdisciplinary team.

It should definitely be, you know, nutrition, a doctor, nutrition, a therapist, a pharmacist, an acupuncturist.

I have a team. I had Thank god. Thank god I have a team. And And the thing is too though, many people out there can't afford a team.

And this is why you know, just if you listen to the episodes before this and learn and take little tidbits and learn to become your own advocate and understand that you still could go even if you don't have a Whole Foods and you can't afford it, you still could go to the supermarket or the bodega and find something that is actually beneficial for you, right?

Yes. You don't have to change everything at once. You know, there are different things that a person can do um within their means. And now we have information at our fingertips, you know. So, this is I would say you can even use AI.

Like, you know, what can I do with my means? You know me so well. What can I do that can be, you know, um economical and easy for me, right? If they don't have access to um a clinician. Right? So, it doesn't have to be healing doesn't have to be a complete lifestyle overdue, you know, cuz that can feel very overwhelming and then, you know, sets them up for failure.

Right.

You know.

Yeah, and you're allowed to be your own advocate.

Yes, be your own advocate, you know, the body wants to always move towards that homeostasis, toward that balance. And, you know, your body is is created to try to instinctively protect you for survival and it's made to be adaptive and to repair. You just have to find the way to give it the best environment.

So, you know, utilize, you know, all the means that you have. And then for the clinicians and, you know, soldiers, you know, on the other end, we do need you on on the ground, you know, fighting from the top-down approach, changing policy, advocating, you know, um community nutrition, community education.

We all need to work together so that we can kind of, you know, change the trajectory of health care in in the right direction.

Right, for sure. I love it. So, as we're closing down our uh conversation, unfortunately, cuz I love this. When I find someone like-minded. Um So, for someone that's feeling overwhelmed, anxious, stuck in their health journey, what would you want them to know about their body's ability to heal and any final like resources or words of encouragement, whatever you want to end the podcast with?

Yeah, so the the body has an incredible ability, you know, to to function, to heal, to protect instinctively. That's that's how it's created. Every every kind of creation is made to survive. You know, so plants have their polyphenols, some animals they they camouflage, right?

So we we heal and we have this incredible miraculous God-given ability to heal. And food is a big part of that because it becomes our body. But I I don't want people to feel with everything going on with over simplification, you know, of of you know, food is medicine.

Um food is not should not be a source of fear or pressure. It should be empowering and it should be a place of reconnecting, right? Um with your body, with listening to yourself, with your culture, with comfort, um with the idea that food is medicine and healing.

It's it's one way of telling the body that you're safe and you're supported. You know, so small steps, you know, are they they don't they're not, you know, sexy terms, you know, like all this regenerative stuff that we have going on that which I do believe in, but like when you're trying to get someone from zero to 10 and 10 to 20, you know, those small little steps are very very powerful.

You know, so don't lose hope. Healing is not going to be quick. It's not always linear, but the body is incredibly responsive when we give it that steady support.

Amen. I am I agree 100% and I'm proof of it and I guess your husband is too.

I think we all are. We all have our stories, you know.

For sure, for sure. Um where can someone find you if if you want to be found?

Sure, I'm on LinkedIn. Um yeah, so um I'm on LinkedIn and I can give you the the um the handle [clears throat] so that they can find me.

All right, wonderful Dr. Lin. Thank you so much for being here. And

Thank you for having me. It was great chatting and we should catch up one day.

Oh no, for sure. Um and listener, thank you if you've listened through this whole thing, I appreciate you and remember to trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you.

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