Can Christians Have Anxiety? Christian Mental Health, Panic Attacks, Nervous System Healing & Finding Peace

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human, and welcome back to the Holistic Counselor podcast, where I hope faith, science, and holistic healing intersect in a way that helps people feel seen, informed, and a little less alone. I'm Diana S. Rice, licensed mental health counselor, certified integrative mental health professional, and the host of this show.

Today, we are diving into a topic that so many people are searching for right now. Christian anxiety, mental health and faith, nervous system healing, overthinking, chronic stress, panic, burnout, and how to find peace in an overwhelmed world. Because let's be honest, a lot of people are exhausted.

People are anxious. People are overstimulated. People are doom scrolling. People are lying awake at 2:00 a.m. overthinking everything. People love Jesus and still struggle with anxiety. And many don't know whether that what they're experience experiencing is spiritual warfare, trauma, burnout, nervous system dysregulation, fear, or simply the weight of caring too much for too long.

And if I'm being real with you all, as a therapist and a woman of faith, a human being, I've wrestled with anxiety, too. For years, I viewed anxiety as something wrong with me, something to suppress, to fix. spiritually outperform or hide. But over time, through both my own healing journey and the work I do with clients, I've started seeing anxiety less as an identity and more as a signal.

Sometimes it's the body asking for safety. Sometimes it's unresolved grief, chronic stress, people pleasing, trauma, perfectionism, disconnection, or emotional overwhelm finally getting loud enough that we can no longer ignore it. And I think this conversation matters because there are so many Christians silently asking questions like, "Can Christians actually have anxiety?"

"Why do I still feel anxious if I trust God?" "What happens when prayer alone doesn't instantly calm panic or intrusive thoughts? Can faith and therapy work together? What does the Bible actually say about anxiety and peace?" So joining me today is Melissa Fiser, LMHC, which means licensed mental health counselor based in Vancouver, Washington, who specializes in trauma, anxiety, and spiritual formation.

Melissa brings not only clinical experience, but also decades of work in Christian youth, women's, military, and young adult ministries, along with personal experience navigating anxiety herself. She's also the author of Jesus for the anxious, eight weeks of practicing peace to calm your worry and fear.

And I'm about to read something that I really that really hit home when I read it. And I was I asked her permission. And I was like, can I read this before we go on? And she's like, "Sure." And this is a paragraph from her book.

Can I tell you two secrets? I have anxiety. not all the time and at times more severely than others, but we've had an on again off-again relationship since I learned to tie my shoes. As a therapist, my specialty in anxiety is both personal and professional.

Even while studying as a graduate student in a professional counseling program, I experienced panic panic attacks in the middle of the night. Overwhelming feelings of guilt for reasons that later didn't make sense and an inability to shake off comments from others. Self-worth crumbled under self-doubt.

Doubt in myself, doubt in my faith, and doubt in my ability to help others. The feeling of living a double life as a counselor who needed help almost caused me to step away from my graduate program altogether. My other secret, I have peace.

Not all the time and at times more deeply than others, but I've learned to manage my anxiety through prayer, scripture, my own personal therapy, education about mental health, insights from other believers, and my work with clients. During the process of working through my anxiety, my faith in Jesus deepened.

I was able to help my clients more effectively and I became a better spouse, parent, and friend. I hope this collection of insights help you on your own emotional health and faith journey. Melissa, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Diana. It's good to be here.

Yeah. All right. So, you know, I'm going to start with your story, of course, because, you know, the listeners want to know who you are. So, before counseling and the book and all those other things, I I gave them an insight. But what was the who was the younger version of Melissa that nobody fully saw?

So, I uh before I was a therapist, as as you read, I did a lot of ministry work. Um my husband was in the military. He's retired now. And so we spent 21 years navigating military life and and really that played a pretty big factor in me becoming a therapist having navigated some um numerous moves.

I think we moved seven times in the first seven years. I don't even I I forgot the number. Uh and then we had in the midst of that two deployments and two kids. Um, so we're living overseas, he's deployed to another place overseas.

And you know, all of that stress and all of those major transitions that were just happening back to back really impacted me as a person um, and impacted my faith. And so it it brought me to a low of lows which you which brought me into the deepest of faith that I was able to go, you know, I think I want to help other people through life problems as well because because I know what it's like to have some really difficult situations.

And so that played a lot of a lot of the factors into, you know, why I do what I do.

Yeah. Can I ask what branch of the military?

Air Force. Air Force.

Oh, all right. Can you tell him thank you?

I will. I will. All right. So, do you remember the moment you realized your anxiety wasn't just stress, but something shaping the way you experienced God, relationships, and yourself?

Yes. And I love the way you phrase that question because it does impact my relationship with God and my relationship with others. Um, it's not just an individual thing. Uh, it is very much integrated into our community, our families, um, and the things around us.

And so for me, I think it really wasn't until that grad program as I, you know, as we're learning as we're learning about things. I mean, and it wasn't that I learned anything profound that all of a sudden I, oh my gosh, I think I have anxiety.

It was that it just became so overwhelming. And so I noticing that I was having the panic attacks at night, they were always at the same time. And I I now know after a while doing this, like, oh, there are a lot of people who have the 3:00 a.m. panic attack.

That's actually a common time to have it. Um, I've heard different reasons of why that is, but um, you know, when you get to a point where you're just stuck and nothing you're doing is helping or very little of what you're doing is helping, that's when you start to usually make changes or at least think, what can I change?

And so that is when I started to say, I think it's time for me just to seek some help and figure some things out.

Yeah, for sure. I know in my personal experience too, like honestly I realized that I I was anxious all my life, right? You say that's why I wanted to read that because you're like tying your shoes and I'm like, "Oh, I remember that too."

Like, you know, and this is the thing. It's like

in Well, when you're going through your um schooling, right, in the halls of the university and you're reading the DSM and all of a sudden like, "Well, I have that. Oh, no. I have that. Oh, no. I have that. Oh, no. I Do you remember that?"

like

well I think it was just recognizing that you know I've had pieces of different things throughout my life and going well okay I just better keep an eye on that then

yes exactly exactly so was there ever a season where you love Jesus deeply but you still felt confused ashamed or frustrated right like because this is the thing

was there ever a time when I was with Jesus and I didn't have moments of feeling ashamed or frustrated

yeah I think you know those are normal emotions to have and things to feel at various times in life. And so certainly I would say especially back, you know, I reference this time frame of of being before I was counselor and and struggling with the military life and being overseas and and the deployments and whatnot.

And that is what I refer to as my dark night of the soul. It was a pretty depressing and anxious time. Um, highly situational, but I was stuck in it for so long. And so I think there for sure I remember thinking like okay I believed in this God for at that point it was about 10 or 12 years

but and I believe in him but I just I is this my lot in life? Is it my lot in life to be alone and to to just be this person who just follows my husband around the world? There was a lot to learn there.

No for real.

But there was that day doubt. There was the doubt, not that God existed, but that that he was really for me, that maybe he cared about what I had to offer to his kingdom and to this world. And so I'm like, well, I guess I'm just I'm just a military spouse.

There's no such thing. That's how I felt.

Well, can you explain that because I'm not military anything, honestly. Like, you know, I respect the military a lot because I I grew up with an immigrant mom, right? And she came to this country to give a better life, you know, I've heard.

So my anxiety and stress came from that hardcore like I did not come to this country for you to you know mess around and and and so that anxiety as a young young child it's something that I know second generations or first generations have where you know like if you if you're not outside but then the respect of being an American she called you know I'm a spoiled American you're an American you know you need to

respect it like and so to me with the military or police officers or whatever like I have this respect I don't even know how to explain like an awe.

So anytime I see someone that's why I'm like tell them thank you but I have heard a lot of it is their own entity of stuff that they have to go through in a way that I know I will never touch because I'm not part of that system.

Can you tell me a little more about it because there might be someone that's a military wife or in the military themselves because I do know that there's a lot of PTSD and

there is, but I think it goes beyond the PTSD. I think um especially I mean I work mostly with um sexual PTSD and and non-military related PTSD. That tends to be more what comes in my office. But regardless, you know, it's there's no way to to capture the military life because it is so diverse in itself.

Um, even though the culture itself, you know, being in that world, um, has its own niche and its own uh, idiosyncrasies, right? That that really only people who are in it truly get it,

right? Um, and so I think for, you know, military members or spouses, um, there's there's the benefit of the camaraderie,

but there's also the deficit of of longevity for a community that and so that's the good and bad, right? There's nothing that's all there's really very little in this world that's all good or all bad.

And this is one of those situations. And so really, a lot of it is learning how to ingrain yourself in the good. that's wherever you are. Um, and that that phrase of, you know, bloom where you're planted.

Yeah.

You know, like I remember telling God like, I'm trying, but you keep replanting me. Like I don't know how to bloom when you keep replanting me. This is so frustrating.

But still taking, you know, each assignment that we got for what it was worth. Um, and recognizing on the spouse side that this was the big lesson I learned during that time was I'm not just this person following this guy around the world because he happens to be the active duty person.

Um, God actually brought me to that location and all of the others for a purpose because he wanted me there. There were things for me to do. There were people for me to reach. And once I realized that,

my whole world opened up and I went, "Oh, okay. Hang on. This isn't about him. It's not about me either actually, but the God the God we serve is much bigger than either of us. And so recognizing I have a purpose no matter where I go.

Exactly. Exactly. And I love how you use the reframe now. Did you learn that in school and that's what helped you or is it, you know what I mean? Or is it now that like later on in life that you've grown and evolved and and bloomed some, you know, here and there that you realize, oh, this is the pattern and I'm realizing because you you're right.

Many people with anxiety, how I see it is like it's fear and control,

right? And and also I got to tell you because I'm holistic is understanding like wait there's phases us women I can't speak for men go through almost every 10 years from starting their period right I'm in menopause right now so I just had a hot flash right before I went on I'm like oh man they're going to see my sweat I'm like I don't even care anymore.

Uhhuh.

So what do you what do you say about that? Well, I think what you're referencing is is the fact that there's so many different pieces that go into anxiety, right? And so, we can't just label it as a mind thing or a physical thing or a spiritual thing because we are integrated beings.

It would be so much easier if we could just set apart these different pieces like ingredients of, you know, a cake on a counter and be like, "This is the flour and the oil and the sugar and the eggs." Um, but it's not a cake.

It's just ingredients on the table. And the reality is it's not a cake until it's all together. Well, we're basically a cake. I don't know why I'm using cake, but I love it. But, you know, like that's how we are. We're integrated whether we want to believe it or not.

If we pull those pieces apart, we're no longer a cake. We are spiritual, physical, emotional, mental, right? And so, um, all of those pieces are a part of even with anxiety recognizing, okay, it is impacting my faith, it is impacting my body, it is impacting my mind.

And sure, there may may may have been one starting point. It rarely is. However, it doesn't matter because it's now impacted all of those areas. And so, all of those areas need to be addressed.

Yeah. No, for real.

I like how you understand that because honestly many clinicians don't because of the training that they have the conventional westernized training that that many of us I know I had it too but I was always a pushback girl because I my family comes from other countries so you know and I was learned by herbalist and stuff like that and I always was curious you know I'm like traditional Chinese medicine yeah I'm I'm allowed to learn about

that God made the whole world and everything good comes from above you must have traveled the whole world too then right

well I'm also I also have an immig parent. So my dad is actually Chinese and he's from Hong Kong. Yeah. So so I get that like you have this other

this other you have a different world view when you have this background and it significantly influences how you view things as you you know as you become older which happens to be for you and me getting into therapy.

Yeah. No, really. It is. It is. And it's wonderful that um I love that cuz I just interviewed someone else from and her parents was like a Yeah. Anyway, see I go off deep ends here. Um but this is really important for the listener who's believes in Christianity and they're suffering um anxiety because I know a lot of my clients come in with anxiety with a lot of guilt and shame for having it.

You know what I mean? and and they're you know and then we realize it's perfectionism or where did they get that narrative their story from. So what do you think the church has historically misunderstood about anxiety, fear and mental health?

Great question. It is what comes into my office probably more often than not is this guilt over their emotion of anxiety. And I think historically the church has been hard on it because it has viewed it at times as a sin, often as a sin.

Um, I do think that's starting to shift, but because it viewed as a sin, the response then ended up being repentance. That was the that was the, you know, suggested response. Pray more because you're not repenting because it's a sin. And so, note how the view of it impacted the response to it.

And therefore, because it was misunderstood in the first place, it was given the wrong response to it. And certainly, please don't stop praying. you need to be keep praying. Um, but I think stepping back and recognizing that this idea of anxiety isn't it it's never labeled as a sin in the Bible,

right?

It's never labeled as a sin in the Bible. And when Paul addresses it, especially, he immediately goes into ways to deal with it when it does come up. I think Paul really understands anxiety because he immediately goes into great advice, which includes prayer and changing the mind and focusing on things that are true and lovely and noble.

And so recognizing that how he addresses it versus other passages that do address sin such as adultery or they're addressing um even slander you know some of these other things idolatry and there's this flea aspect to the way it's addressed like get away from this and this is a little this is different when when Paul's addressing what I would consider to be more emotional problems or even if they're habitually emotional he's giving them direction in directions of what to do instead.

Yeah. And it's never like you're going to hell because you don't have enough faith because I guess it's because of the the clients that come to me in the last uh few years. I just hear some stories from all denominations honestly

from all and I and I've come to the realization that guilt and shame are from the world and the narratives and the lies that this that the world tells us.

Conviction comes from the word of God. conviction like you just said of okay there could be something that's that you are doing you know like watching something and that's causing you anxiety and and then but it is the guilt from you know it's so many different layers to it but for for those that are are now like working through this because some people say like you can't Jesus should be everything and all of it like there's a lot of counselors too I see a debate Sometimes people ask me, "Well, you're not a Christian therapist."

And I'm like, "Why not? Why am I not a Christian therapist?" Because I have a little bit of psychology understanding and I use modalities like CBT and IFS. And you see what I mean? How do you handle something like that?

So, it's, you know, such a a hot topic, right? Um, so, okay. So, Christian counseling, it means a thousand different things to a thousand different people. And so um for me the way um I practice being a Christian therapist is that I am a believer and I am walking in my own faith and seeking God and that happens regardless of who the person is sitting in front of me.

Now what I practice in office does depend on this person sitting in front of me. So even if they're a Christian, excuse me, [clears throat] it doesn't mean we're always talking about God or Jesus, but it comes in more organically than that because I'm listening looking for where they are in their faith and how much they are wanting to integrate that and I'll bring it up and if they don't respond to it, then they don't respond to it.

And so that is just my way of practicing. I mean, there's a whole spectrum of really, you know, you can go from an athetic over to just I'm a Christian who I happen to be a Christian, but I'm mostly a therapist. that's what you know where some people are in their in their Christian therapy type of work.

So for me that's where I sit is somewhere in the middle of

of well actually I would argue I do quite a bit of um biblical work in my work as a therapist with clients who want that

right with clients who want that. It it it is to understand. Yeah. Because to me that that's the thing. It's like how do you stay clinically licensed with ethics, right? And and then Yeah. And then people argue like, well, you should be telling them about Jesus.

And I'm like, no. Because most of my career was in alternative high schools and then I've had my private practice. So, you know, I wasn't it people knew I was a follower of Jesus Christ, but never once if somebody came in. I do have a question before we start like do you want that in your sessions?

Honestly though I have a lot of people with anxiety that come in because because of being raised in high controlling religion.

Are you are you having some Oh

yeah I work a lot with spiritual abuse too and so yes unfortunately and and again I will say there is some shift in the church. starting to embrace mental health and recognize it as something bigger than what they can handle. Um, which I appreciate because I think that's starting to change the view and of a more

honestly a more biblical perspective of what it means to serve people. And so, but yes, I also have seen a lot of that coming in the door where they're they're very scared. Um, I don't keep a Bible on my shelf cuz I've had clients in the past where um, it was it was the weapon against them throughout their childhood and so it triggered so much trauma for them.

And so I don't keep one visible knowing that that is actually the case for some people, but certainly, you know, we use it with other clients who want to talk about something. So

yeah. No, and you're right on about that. Like so you see clients in person then you have an office that people come to.

Correct. I actually work for a nonprofit um Christian counseling center here in my town. Um we are all licensed but yeah

that's that's amazing that I like to hear that because Yeah.

And that's another thing and not putting biblical counseling down, but I have a lot of clients who come out of that and come to me because they they went in with trauma like sexual abuse and rape indri you I could keep going and going and then they go to that oh no no it's you know you have to stay when these and safety is the number one concern for a human being like to feel safe right

because let's talk about how you see anxiety and and what actually helped you and what you do with your clients without giving away everything.

Yeah. And you had asked earlier, you know, at what point was I recognizing it and then you mentioned tying my shoes and real, you know, looking back and realizing there's anxiety for a long time. So most of mine, which I actually think most people are, this is where it starts is most of mine was relational, meaning I had what I call guilt anxiety.

I I relate to the clients who come in with all of the guilt and all of the ideas that they need to do things just right and and the overachiever anxiety. I have all different labels for it that they laugh at because it's true.

Because because my my best overachievers are the most anxious people because they're trying to constantly control things. Okay, good. You're on my side. I like that your hand is raised. Yes. So, that is something I had to learn and that is something I did not learn through education.

It's actually something I learned as a student when I was sitting with clients. I was probably only a few months into my I hate to say practice because at that point I'm barely practicing but you know a few months into seeing clients

and you know you're as a student for counseling you're learning so much and you're just trying to say the right thing even though that's not the point of therapy

but that's all you can think about is what am I going to say to this you know whatever the

first do no harm I don't want to mess you know they're already coming in with all this and now you're here with them going I don't want to do the wrong thing

don't say the wrong thing right So, the one of my supervisors had given me this great quote and I don't could not tell you what it was to this day, but a client comes in and they're talking about something that was related to this quote.

And so, I bring up this quote and they're like, "Oh, that's great." Yes. And so, and we just have this great conversation about it. Like, well, that was cool. All right. I must be doing okay. And then, and this is a true story.

So, then the next client comes in and they're talking like about the same topic. I'm like, "Well, that's kind of weird." And so, I I'm like, "Well, I'll bring up this quote again." And I go, "Well, this is what I heard. What do you think about this?"

And they were like, "That is dumb. Absolutely not." And and were kind of mad that I brought it up and I went, "Oh, okay. I this is not this is not the thing to say." So So they leave and I'm kind of reassessing things and and uh then this third client comes in.

I'm not kidding. Same day. This all happened in the same day. And they bring up the same topic. And now I'm thinking, "Okay, God, like is this a test? Is there something I'm not seeing?" You know, I thought I'm just going to throw it out there because I feel like it still relates to them, but maybe, maybe not.

So, I throw it out there and they're like, "Maybe." And they just move on. They'll get three totally different responses.

But what that taught me was so profound because I I I ruminated on that for a while in a healthy way. I was processing it. And so, I went, "Oh my gosh, I'm the same person." And I got three different totally different responses.

People's reactions to me aren't about me. Like that was so profound at 30. I don't even know how old I was. 30 something. And so to to recognize that it wasn't about me at all and that other people's reactions to me are rarely about me that profoundly changed how I interacted with people.

Yeah. And that's one thing I try to have clients understand too because that they're coming in and that, you know, it's like they feel like everyone's against them or that anxiety. It depends on how how strong the anxiety is, right? Or it's just like, oh, they hate me or this or that, the people pleasing and and there's so and this is what I'm saying like where did that story start?

Where did it come from? And then this is what I love when I work with those that are believers. It's like, but what does God say? And I love your book because I I looked over it and I was reading part of it and and I love how you have it.

You It's just like a workbook. So, can you tell me more about this book? Like, what all of a sudden made you do this write this book this eight weeks of practicing peace to calm your worry and fear? I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing."

Right? So, as you can probably tell, I'm a very practical person. I don't like to read flowery books. It's just not my thing. And so, and so that was not what I was setting out to do. I actually wasn't setting out to write a book.

I just started writing. I just went, "Well, so a lot of my clients would say things like, gosh, I wish I really wish my so- and so could hear this. They really need it, but they won't go to therapy." Or, "Man, my grandpa or my my uh my mom really needs this um or my grandpa, you know, and they don't believe in therapy or they can't afford it or something along those lines."

And and the reality is I know and you know we can't replicate therapy in a book. It's not possible.

The the neuroscience and the spiritual aspect of two people interacting cannot be replicated in words on a page right or on an ebook. And so I knew that going into it which actually caused me some pause. I'm like well I can't replicate this really so what's the point?

And then as I thought more about it, I went, you know, there are some things I can give people that would be helpful that maybe would introduce them to what therapy even means, at least for my therapy. Right. This is my version of therapy, not all Christian therapy.

Exactly.

And so I thought, okay, there's got to be a way to at least put some of this stuff where people just need help right now. Obviously, you know it, I know it, and anybody listening knows it. People need help right now and especially for anxiety.

And so this book I started four years ago.

Wow. four years ago. And yeah, and then and I spent about a year and a half writing it. I actually put it down at one point because I was like, "This is not working." And then I fasted for a while and God helped me finish it.

And then of course the process of getting a publisher and whatnot. But but what developed and what started coming out of it as I was writing is the recognition that that okay, I can at least give people tools and insights and they can do with it what they want.

But I I know from experience of working with anxiety, and I'm sure you know this, is that people with anxiety need bite-sized pieces.

Yes,

they are easily overwhelmed. So, the idea of reading a book is overwhelming as it is. And anxiety, learning about anxiety or really trying to overcome anxiety couldn't cause more anxiety.

So, I my whole thought process in going into it is I want to make this manageable. Thus the daily readings, thus the common the um frequent recaps that I do

just to for people to know like this does not have to be read these 400 pages and you're going to be better kind of thing. This is an experiential book.

Yeah. It's a practical it's you know a couple hundred pages and then it asks it's like journaling at the same time and very you know day by day week by week and let's go. I I I like this because it could be to me.

I wonder if you could like do it at churches like a Bible study. You know, I know back in the day when I would go to, you know, the ladies Bible study for the week and we could just put it together in 8 week study, right?

Is that how you

I have a group study guide on my website. It's free. Um yeah. And so, and I and I created that knowing that some people would ask for that. I'm very clear in it. This is not a group for people with anxiety because that should be run by a therapist.

This is a group for people who want to seek peace. And so your group facilitator, whoever that person is, is not a therapist. And then I even have them put a few local therapy resources on that front page of the group study guide.

So everybody has it up front. If something happens and we need some more resources, this is who we can go to.

Yeah. So let's talk about anxiety because some people like you, you know, we have this word and it's the anxious generation. I mean there's that book that everybody talks about the anxious generation and and why why is it happening more and more and and I mean the science behind it of what's happening in the body what what did you learn you know because I know breath work

is something that that is something that revolutionized my anxiety not only breath work but like eltheonine and getting off internet and touching grass.

Yes. Yes. So, and you're covering like all the bases there, right? It's physical, it's um mental, like it's what we consume, it's relational, it's all of those pieces. And so I um I spent I think one day in the book defining anxiety. Um and the and the complicated part is is that we all use the word differently.

Sometimes we use it to reference an emotion and sometimes we use it to reference a set of symptoms. And so, and I do go back and forth between it, but I think just pointing out like that's part of the reason why it's confusing.

But the other part is that the emotion I think we can all kind of wrap our brain around the set of symptoms varies widely between people. And so I list out a whole bunch of symptoms that could be just people to kind of see.

And I go way beyond the DSM because this is not about people self-dagnosing.

That's not the purpose of this book. And so I list things like um you know guilt for reasons that you don't understand or doubt in your faith because I do think that's a symptom of anxiety. And so I list a whole bunch of things and then I just acknowledge that the DSM has a very specific list of symptoms that it uses to define generalized anxiety disorder.

The word anxiety isn't actually the name of the disorder. It's called generalized anxiety disorder as you know. And so that way people know like this is something separate. We're setting that aside. That's not our purpose. But I'm going to use the word anxiety in this book as both an emotion and as a set of symptoms that are anxiety related.

So your set of symptoms is is going to look different than your other friends who has anxiety too, which is probably why it's been confusing for you because they say anxiety and you're like, I don't get it, but I know I have anxiety over this.

Yeah. And is it anxiety? Because sometimes I think vocabulary we have that one word and it's and and it's used a lot but could it also be grief? Could it be rage? Could it be um excitement? Could it be doubt? Could it be see what I mean?

So it was like I know with my clients I'm like, "Okay, let's really go deep into it because they they people just want relief

automatically. Quick relief, quick relief." But sometimes that anxiety is signaling out to you to tell you to slow down.

Yes. And that's that's what I kind of define as I think at one point elsewhere is it's a sign. Emotions are signs. They're just trying to tell you something. Ding ding ding. Hey, pay attention. That's why we have fire alarms that are super loud.

They're signs. Like pay attention. Something's happening. Yeah.

So, if you're feeling anxiety or anger or frustration or even depression or sadness, pay attention. It means something needs to change. Now, I can't tell you what that something is not having sat and talked with you,

but something does need to change. And it's not necessarily your faith. However, there is likely something in your faith that will change as you process that emotion.

Oo. Okay. We're going to go in there for a little bit because I like that. Yes. your faith is going to change because of that emotion and and I'm just thinking my own personal situation and you're right on because that dark night of the I like how you said that because many Christians don't use that word the those words the dark night of the soul because they're like that's woowoo or new age and I'm like no actually if you read the the desert fathers

yeah back before protestantism even existed you would understand that's something that they talked about when they were in the desert and um But that right there, it it's like that's why I named my my company through the valley therapy because you have to go through it people.

You can't go around it. You can't get over it because it's teaching you something about you physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally and it is the signaling. So tell me more how you how you know what you mean by that.

Yeah. So, a lack of emotional growth or emotional health styies spiritual growth. Wow. You can't grow spiritually um at some point if you're if you're not growing emotionally because what's happening, if you think about what emotional growth is, it's essentially a self-awareness, right?

Emotional growth is a true it's a it's a self-awareness. And true self-awareness um is is understanding who you are in God. But if you're not willing to address the emotions underneath, that means you're not willing to address those with God either. So that means you're putting a cap on what you're willing to address as a whole.

And so that's going to st your spiritual growth because that means that you're not willing to, okay, God, no, I'm not prideful. I'm not angry. Whatever. Like I'm just doing this thing. And maybe God's in there going, "Um, we need to work with some stuff here.

Excuse me. You got that plank in your eye and you're not willing to address it." But the plank in the eye is an emotional growth thing.

It's a self-awareness thing. So, if you can't do that emotional and self-awareness work, you're not going to take that plank out.

O and that plank could uh

could uh

hit others, you know what I mean? Or hurt others, too. And then you're wondering like, why are my relationships not working out too well?

Because sometimes,

which is why this is all relational, too. Yes. Well, to me, I'm thinking as I've walked the line of of that, you know, the this not only self-doubt, but doubt in the Lord. Now, my faith is stronger than ever, right? It's just and I still question things.

I think what happens is when you have anxiety, we're living in a black and white thinking, you know, that that either control or fear and and scrolling through social media or listening to the news just is going to feed that fire of, you know, anxiety because this is how sometimes I express anxiety is fear of the future or whatever, not being able to control the future and depression is like looking back in the past and you

you know, looking at the what ifs, if I should have, would a, could have, or and then you get stuck in these things.

And the Lord says now, like we have this present moment. Like right now, if you're listening, it's now because in a second something else can happen. Not trying to give you anxiety, but you know, like, but I love how you said that. So, you know, how do we learn the difference between God's voice, wisdom, conviction, anxiety, hypervigilance, and trauma-driven fear?

How do you how do you deal with that?

Only time spent with Jesus can help you with that discernment. That's it. That's the only answer. If we don't spend time with the voice of God, we won't be able to discern his from other voices. That is the only answer. I can't do that in therapy for you.

I can't do that as a friend, as a spouse, as a mom. um only a person's own walk and and silence with Jesus or reading with him or praying with him. That right there is giving you the um the foundation to have that discernment so that when something else comes in, you're able to go, "Aha, okay, that can't be him because I know I've spent this time with him."

And that and it and it comes down to this four-letter word called time. And those of us who are westerners, especially those of us who live in America who are westerners, we do not like our time to be challenged. If you want to make someone mad real fast, you tell them that they need to change their calendar.

Oh my god. Yes.

Yes. You're spot on. Especially when I work with those high performing, anxious boss babes,

right?

And they're great. I love them, but they're all over it. just because

they get mad at me and then all of a sudden they attack and I'm just like, you just hired me and paying me this much an hour and I am telling you that you're going to have to take the time. I don't have time.

Well, we all if we're right here right now have the 24 hours a day, seven days a week if we're blessed enough to be on this side of heaven. You know, you're right. Oh my gosh, you're so right. I'm just thinking of like all my clients.

They don't like them. But then when we do micro because what do you do with yours? Because I have to teach them because they have either given themselves away to their company or they given themselves away to the family or their children which is not a bad thing but I know one thing for certain us women if if if there's women listening we're taught a certain way of being and it's very I always call it Martha mode.

It's like we got to be doing this, doing this, doing this, doing this. And Mary, we we got to sort of it's teaching both Mary and Martha, like no, we need to chill with Jesus.

Yeah. So, I think you know what you're referencing in there. It really it comes down to a couple different things. And you mentioned control earlier.

When we fill our calendars and fill our lives with all of these things, we're trying to control the narrative, the narrative of our labels and who we are. We're trying to control the narrative of what happened with our kids. We're trying to control the narrative.

I mean, you you name it, we're trying to control it. And the reality is it's it's a lack of that is it's a lack of faith and trust. And so, even though we're not talking about anxiety as a sin, we do have to recognize that a lot of the practices that we put into place are going against our faith.

Meaning, it's causing us to have less faith.

Yeah.

We're practicing a lack of faith by not trusting with those things. It's like the Sabbath. I think the Sabbath is the best practice of faith someone can do. It is trusting God to do more in six days than you can do in seven.

And so it's that, you know what, God,

I can find a way kind of way. I need to prioritize this whatever 24-hour period and build everything else around it, not trying to squeeze that in.

Right.

It's a difference in mindset, too.

It is. It's it's it's renewing of the mind. I mean, the word of God does have a lot of CBT in it. like a coffee table, right? I love that. But it is challenging us because it is a mirror. This is what I said, you know, tell people the Bible is a mirror on how we need to be.

Jesus came into this world to teach us the way and he's the truth and the life. And if you understand like his words, not cuz this is the thing too as we talked about spiritual abuse and stuff like that. I have seen many people come out of unhealthy narcissistic systems, right?

And the word was used against the human or to to do identity politics or culture wars or whatever you want to say,

but to to sit still with the word of God, the Bible, and in prayer with breath work because you you mentioned breathing, right? It's both scientific and spiritual. And and if you really think about how God made the first human, what what was the thing he did?

He didn't put a brain in. He put breath.

He put breath in. Yeah. Do you

I spent a whole week on breath by the way. Really? The entire week? Yes. Week number two is all on breath. It is that important. You are 100% correct.

So

it's neuroscience. It's spiritual. It's all of that.

Well, let's talk a little bit about that because I think people don't understand especially in the western culture that they don't know. When I was studying traditional Chinese medicine or Aydic medicine or eastern cultures, that's something that's really important is the breath. And so then I found the one minute pause.

I don't know if you know that app, the one minute pause.

Oh, I've heard of it. Yeah.

And Breathley. These are free. And the reason why I like free was because I work with people that can't afford a lot of things, right? And so anytime I was able to find but you know or lectio deina.

It's it's just, you know, slowing down and it feels weird when you're so used to going go because that was me and I now know how to but I rewired my brain. So it's neuroplasticity. Tell me what not to tell me everything in that in that you know week two but what are a couple of things that you you know that someone listening could get helped by?

Well, I'll ask you first. You said you rewired your brain. How did that happen?

I had to start practicing minute to then two minutes then to four minutes and then to 10 minutes.

So what I hear in there is time.

Yeah.

Right. you had to take the time

and you had to do it consistently and habitually because we're building a new habit.

And so now my hunch is you fairly naturally go to a deep breath when you need it

and you know how to do it in a way that's effective and that's lowering your heart rate that's um a that's activating it's kind of a weird word to use for the parasympathetic nervous system but it's activating the parasympathetic and deactivating the activated one.

It's deactivating the one that causes the, you know, the fight or flight and etc. And so learning to to do that requires practice. You use the word practice. Nobody's going to show up at the Super Bowl having just picked up a football. And we get into these high stress situations and it's like, I didn't do anything you told me to do.

I didn't even think about it. And I'll ask clients, you know, were you doing it every day? Well, no, because I mean, I don't need it on those days. Well, you're you're right, but you actually do need it on those days so that you get it ingrained and it becomes habitual.

And when you're in those high stress moments, you will only go to what has already been built into you through that rope memory, through that repeated memory. You will not pick out something you learned a week ago or two weeks ago one time in a 55 minute therapy session.

No, really. I I mean, I read now that it takes 90 days. before it was like 21 days, but to really get the the atomic habits or the tiny habits because it was it's it's me waking up and I don't drink coffee, right?

Or a lot of caffeine anymore because caffeine did a number on me and I didn't know like you don't know until you know, right? And so this is the thing with clients to have that understanding like being that curious observer of themselves

in order to really understand the why behind the anxiety.

Yeah, it's important.

Yeah.

And even if we don't know why, we can at least have some whats. And sometimes doing the what's doing the coping skills, that's where it starts to come to light like, wow, I really breathe in my chest a lot. Wow, that's a lot of wow, am I ever getting a really good breath?

You know, so sometimes practicing those things those things brings to light what maybe you could have changed before and now you're like, "Okay, now I know I can change this."

Yeah, it is. And it's understanding the holistic approach too. Not just the breath, but understand like what because sometimes what scares some of my clients is when you do slow down, stuff from the past start flooding in and you you've pushed that away.

You pushed it down. You don't want to deal with it anymore. So, can someone's body still carry fear and stress even when they intellectually know scripture and trust God?

It's such a funny question because we all know it's yes. Every single one of us, every single one of us that has ever known a verse from God know has had moments or lifetimes where our body has carried that stress. Yes. 100% yes.

And you know, you just mentioned it's not just about the breath because it isn't because you've got um there you'll notice in the book I also do some CBT work. I I do breath. I do mind stuff. I spend a whole week on the mind.

I spend a week or two on rest. And then the last few chapters and weeks are all about getting underneath the surface with relationships and your relationship with God. Because you and I know that like you just alluded to, those are the things kind of underlying.

And so if we're just doing the breath and we're shoving down the things that are kind of coming up, then we're not actually dealing with the things underneath that need to be dealt with. And so eventually those things need to be dealt with.

Oh, for sure. And and and slowly because you don't want to overwhelm the system, but it's also understanding how you use your five senses. This is because I worked with alternative high schools and teenagers. So I'm like, how are you using your five?

What do you mean? I'm like, well, what are you listening to? What are you looking at? What do you actually I mean smelling I know it's weird but I I'm I'm a thing of essential oils or something that's calming. Um what are you eating?

What are you putting in your system? Because if you're waking up and having that coffee and donut every day and then you're wondering why you're anxious at, you know, 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

Sorry. Like it is about changing

becoming the best human you possibly can be and and just changing little things because you don't know if you're raised I mean I like I told you I was raised eating Burger King and rice and beans every day, right? I did not know that I should eat a lot of vegetables or or something like that, right?

And then I was wondering because that's it. Have you gotten your blood work done? because honestly my thyroid was off and that could cause anxiety. See, so there's so many different aspects of a human being

that you can look for to find out as you slow down and you're worth it because this is one thing I've heard is like I don't have time and and it's like it's not a I I have to take care of all these other people and I'm like but you're worth putting the oxygen tank on and slowing down and and letting go of some balls that need to that are your juggling. at this moment because if you keep going on this pattern, right, what's going to happen?

Yeah. I like to say you're basically trying to pour from an empty cup and so nobody around you is getting filled. It's just the illusion of tipping your cup over and pretending like there's something coming out of it into their cups and in reality there's nothing actually coming out.

Yeah. So we are giving you permission to take a breath and to just be still with God and and pray. So as we close down this hour that we've been together, I just want to know a little more about how people can work with you or how they can find your book.

Tell me about how people can reach out to you and everything.

Sure. So, I have a website where I put out a monthly newsletter. Um, it is melissafishercounseling.com all spelled in normal American ways and and I'm not very original as you can tell. And um I just put out newsletters that are a lot of what we've talked about, faith, mental health, the Christian walk, um therapy topics, and my book is also on my website, but it's at all the major retailers. um Amazon, Target, Barnes, you name it, it's on it.

And so they can connect with me um by signing up the newsletter. I do not have any social media on purpose. I gave it up 10 years ago. It was one of the best decisions of my life. I love that your face is shocked right now, but and it was very hard to do, especially being a military spouse, and my friends are all around the world of close, of course.

But um I don't have any social media and I know that disappoints.

Okay. No, you know what I'm feeling right now because I know how to go into my my myself here. I am feeling and I'm breaking I think I'm breaking a commandment. I am jealous. I coveting the lack of social media.

It is a beautiful thing. And I spend a lot of time with clients talking about reducing their news time, reducing their social media time because what I'm trying to get people to do is to bring their mental world closer to them.

Because the further out it is, the more anxious we feel. And I don't think we're ever designed to know all the details of something happening across the country or world. So when we give that up or we spend less time with it, they spend more time with those people closer with them.

And so yes, I don't social media. I have a LinkedIn that's about it. So hopefully.

All right. So, well, I I just want to say I have fasted. I like one year here and then 40 days and I do it for Lent. So, I do because I I do.

And how did you feel?

It was amazing. Especially that one year. It was 2019. I'll never forget. It was 2019. I did the whole year and I and then COVID hits in 2020 and then I'm just like, oh. And then I wish I would have never went back on ever.

And sometimes I do struggle. That's a whole different episode. I still I do struggle with like I'm just deleting it all and then and then all of a sudden yeah it's like you got family across the world and you know whatever. All right.

Anyway, is there anything you'd like to say before we say goodbye? Yes. So for the person who worries constantly and fears nothing or everything, the one who's tired of overthinking conversations and carrying tension in their body or feeling guilty for being anxious. Um there is hope.

So rooted in scripture, informed by psychology and neuroscience. That is what you're going to find in this book. Um for peace today, connection with Jesus and hope for tomorrow. A thank you Melissa. So again, here's the book people if you're watching on YouTube.

It's called Jesus for the anxious. Eight weeks of practicing peace to calm your worry and fear. Melissa, thank you for being on the show. and listener. If you made it this far, please do not forget to trust in the Lord. Guard your heart and renew your mind.

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