Healing from Church Hurt with Neuroscience & Grace: Christian Mental Health Tools That Actually Work​

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. It's me, Diana from Through the Valley Therapy and Transformed Mind Consulting and Coaching, and I'm so glad you're here. If you've been on a journey like mine, searching for ways to integrate science and faith to break the stigma around mental health, especially within the church and the BIPO community, then you're in the right place.

This podcast was created for you. I know firsthand how many are hurting, how access to quality holistic therapy can be limited, and how overwhelming healing can feel when you're walking it alone. That's why I'm passionate about continuing to provide free content from tools to real stories and lived wisdom to remind you, you are not alone.

You can find the podcast full mission and vision statement over on my website. But spoiler alert, it's all about hope, healing, and practical support. Now, today's guest had me excited from the moment he said yes. His story is powerful, faithfilled, and full of insight.

Joe Padilla is a licensed and ordained minister with over 20 years of experience in overseas missions, ministry, ministry leadership, and nonprofit development. In 2011, after witnessing his wife's remarkable mental health recovery, he co-founded Mental Health Grace Alliance. Joe helped co-author and develop all their curriculums and training programs, resources that have not only impacted thousands, but have been published in four psychological journals for their positive outcomes.

Through Grace Alliance, Joe has led support groups, coached hundreds of families and individuals, trained leaders across the globe, and established one of the largest networks of Christian mental health groups worldwide. So whether you're driving, working out, folding laundry, or taking a break between meetings, get ready because this conversation is packed with hope, wisdom, and maybe even a fresh breath of grace to carry you through your day.

Thank you, Joe, for coming on the show. Yeah, I'm excited. Thank you. All right, so we're going to start like I always start with my guest. Tell me who you are and your story. What led you to Mental Health Grace Alliance? Yeah. Well, there's there's two parts of of our story.

There's my own background. I grew up in a you know, adverse childhood, uh, poverty, things like that. And so, it's a it's a wild story how I've overcome all of those things. Um, but then the second part of the story is really with my wife is when we were overseas and and so for about a 10-year period, we were overseas. um and and uh doing development and you know ministry and things like that.

Um but she had kind of a protracted depression anxiety which brought us home after 10 years. Then two years we were in the states after that and we just navigated the mental health care system uh ministry and really tried to get the right things in place.

And it was very interesting that that when we navigated the mental healthare system we got the worst of the worst. We got the the psychiatrist didn't know what they're doing. uh the therapists didn't know what they were doing. And even myself and our ministry leaders, we didn't know what we were doing because we weren't trained for this.

So, so after about a two-year period, we we really just were at a place where everything just kind of fell apart and we needed to step down from ministry and try to figure out how we're going to move forward. My wife and our five kids, which I have five girls.

Uh so, oh my word. So, u but really at that point um you know when you go through suffering you you go through a kind of a reformation uh as well. And so there and that gets into research and I'm sure you know all about this.

So I but let's let's I want us to stop you for a second Joe because I know and you know my audience doesn't. That's why I'm I want to teach them what you mean because you just talked about the mental health system and I don't want to put it all down because I know they're they're doing the best.

I worked in community mental health. We were doing the best we can with the knowledge we know, right? And the resources we had. So, can I just take you back a little first of all on your story on who like what do you mean you had high ACE score?

I'm sure you know what ACE score is, right? Yeah. And so like where did you grow up? Yeah, I grew up um in poverty. So I I lived in government housing uh for quite a quite a number of years. U we have a very very tragic uh kind of experience uh family experience, single mom, um things like that.

And uh and so just have a really uh very difficult background. Um I actually dropped out of high school uh when I was a junior uh and spent about I was a homeless teen for about a six-month eight-month period. Uh and then I I was able to come back into school um for my senior year, but I I was a I was a basically a failure uh in every study.

Um I actually came to a very dark point in my life when I was about 17. Um and uh very suicidal. Um and in that dark moment uh I had a unique experience with Jesus.

All I can say is uh that uh in that darkest point uh where I wanted to end my life uh was just a very unique experience where he now just showed up and just started showing me a different path forward and he put people in my life where I was able to overcome restore um not only myself but with my relationships with my family and my education and all of that.

So, I began a long journey. Um, it took me about five years to graduate from university. A family really took me in. Um, and I'm still very close with this family today. They're part of my family. So, um, and so they really kind of helped me, uh, walk that through, uh, in my own journey.

So, I overcame a lot of challenges, uh, from the drug abuse and all of those things, uh, to all kinds of challenges, um, in our in our home life and and the environment that we lived in. I mean, there was murders. There was all kinds of things that were going on.

Can I ask you where you grew up? Like where what part of the country? I grew up in Yeah, it was in uh San Antonio, Texas. Okay. Yeah. So, I I feel you. Sing a single. Is Was your mom an immigrant or no?

No. Uh we are we are I am Puerto Rican. So, uh we Oh, yeah. I'm half Puerto Rican. Okay, there you go. Yeah. So, she moved uh to the States when we were very little. Uh and so then uh that just began a journey and it was just really difficult for her uh and uh and and just our lives were very difficult.

So but again it was a process of healing and and really what I found was in my healing journey um that uh a lot of the things that I felt like God was walking me through were were identical to a lot of things that you find in therapy today. uh was just so unique of how he would walk me through specific things um in that process, but I didn't know until I got into this journey of of mental health.

And and let me say this to to your point, back in the day when we were walking this through with my wife, the the mental health the healthcare system um we are way more advanced now than we were back in, you know, the early 2000s or, you know, 2008, 2009.

That's kind of when we were in the in the journey. But again, I also figured out how to navigate the therapy world because there there is a way that you can help people, especially if you understand the neuroscience of what they're going through.

Um, and then you can get stuck in the wrong therapy and and then and not see any progress. And I find this is as I'm coaching individuals, this is one of one of the things I figured out, um, is that people end up in the wrong therapy, stuck, not moving forward, when they should be in another type of therapy that's actually helping them move forward.

And then not to say that that therapy is wrong, it's probably not at the right time. So, can you give me an example? Like I I that's very I'm curious about that because to me I I understand what you mean, but like someone listening that has no idea about therapy.

Like say they they're kind of curious and they found my show and they're just like, I don't know, therapy is not for me. I was told as a Christian that you you know, all you need is faith. You're not praying enough.

You're not, you know, like you're you're sinning too much or etc., etc., like can you give me example of what we can and we can go deep into that because there's a whole different perspective on how we deal spiritually uh as you're helping people u and this is something that we we uniquely do through our curriculum because it's not it's not the the standard approach of uh look for sin uh we're looking for love and I'm

going to show you how that's done but in this process of therapy to get to that point um when when somebody's going through a high distress let's say um anxiety um intrusive of thoughts um very very feelings of panic or even depression which is causing what's called anhidonia u which is the the the breakdown of not able to experience um positive emotions um there's a flat effect at times um so in when somebody's in that process

or in that state that mind state which is causing a mindset and a mind state which is affecting their whole nervous system and their whole body sometimes they they get into a therapy that's very psychoanalytical psychonamic and so then they start going through it kind of like their story what's going on and then they're just trying to process.

Well the the problem with that is the brain in the neuroscience from the prefrontal cortex it's trying to survive. It's not trying to process. So in high stress states um that that is um and even when you look at from a flight uh and freeze standpoint and then the the and fight is a different status in the brain. it's not part of the same equation.

So the brain is actually in a different state um when it's in fight uh mode than it is in flight or uh flight or freeze. Yeah. So again understanding these things from a psychological and neuroscience standpoint then I always encourage people that when I'm working with them and this is why our material is is very effective um in helping this process is because we look for tools. this.

So, I'm I'm so I when I coach I've coached hundreds of people through this and I get the same comment of I've been sending a therapist. I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know, you know, and so it's like, well, tell me about your therapy.

And then again, they're just talking, well, we just talk about my emotions. We talk about this. We talk about that. And then they leave the therapy, but they have no tools to handle ongoing depression, ongoing anxiety, but they feel good when they're in therapy.

Right? Again, I'm not saying psychoanalytical or psychonamic is unnecessary, but once the person starts to heal through those tools, then they're ready to process a little bit more emotionally. They're not ready at that distress point. So, that's why I recommend like, hey, maybe let's try CBT, uh maybe DBT.

Have you have you tried ACT? So let's let's stop there because we're saying these we're talking like you know how in churches they talk Christianies and someone that's not a Christian is like what are you talking about? We're talking therapies. Yes. Sorry. No, no worries.

So let's explain like Okay. D. Yeah. So cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy. Um and then uh the the other one is called acceptance and commitment therapy. Um, and these these are are designed to help with reframing tools, but then also management tools so that you're working down symptoms.

Um, and you're able to move forward through life. So that so when so the way I like to explain it is therapy is just like training a fireman or a fireman. Okay? We teach them about the fire. We put them in the classroom.

We help them understand all these things about the fire, how and here's how it works. And then we put them into the fire so that they know how to deal with the fire. And then so then when uh they're now full-fledged uh fire professionals when the bell rings, they know what to do.

So same way the same way with therapy, exposure response therapy. Yeah. We teach you about this, what this is. We help you understand how it works. We teach you the tools of how to work it down and how to manage these things. And then uh we walk you through some some exposure response.

And then when it does when you leave this therapy session and when you leave you now have the toolkit so when you feel panic you know how to reframe reconstruct the framework within the brain. You know how to deal with intrusive negative thoughts.

You know how to deal with how that that that effect is ex is uh making you feel from the emotion. and then really kind of uh managing those symptoms and things like that. But then just it's not just about symptom management, but then what about life management, but then what about reinvention of life?

This isn't just about surviving and being supported in sickness. This is about now discovering how do you flourish, I love that, thrive, and how do you see the meaning and purpose of your life now, not just managing symptoms. Oh my goodness. This So you're basically talking about neuroplasticity honestly.

And I'm about to I'm actually working on my uh presentation. They've asked me on United Way of Broward County, their behavioral conference to do a presentation on neuroplasticity and faith. And I'm like, "All right, Laura, what you got me into?" So that's what you're talking about.

What I say with my um clients is I'm trying to teach you a self-defense course, you know, self-defense instead of just the physical. It's like you're I'm but you have to pick up the tools. You have to practice them every day. You have to have the understanding.

I give them journal questions. I give them like, you know, accountability in that way with cognitive distortions. And I'm like, "Okay, we're building up new neurons. We're we're doing a new pathway. I mean, you came to me in a valley.

We're trying to get to your mountaintop and we're we're starting new you know you have to get that hatchet and start you know sorry trees but you know break down the trees and stuff like that to start a new trail but it's hard work but once you cuz obviously Joe's story I mean I only got a little bit of it and everybody's heard my story if you've listened to this podcast since episode one it took a lot of hard work a lot of hard work so I want to go back to act DBT T, CBT.

Actually, I utilize CBT, DBT, and IFS, internal family systems. I mean, I'm learning about that, too. And I try to make people understand like, listen, medication has its place. So, I'm we're I'm sure Joe and I are not here to try to shame or guilt you because it was invented and there is its place.

But what I think you're I get let me know if I'm wrong Joe but when you were navigating the mental health system see I was a therapist with adolescence and when I what I was seeing was disturbing when you know there's 9 10 11 years old on psychiatric medicine but no one cared about the brain and I was wondering and then I had what happened with my son in 2012 where he had a traumatic brain injury

and I had to quit being a therapist and that's where I learned about neuroplasticity neuroscience and behave, all this stuff.

And I'm like, "Oh my go brain access." I So I have a feeling you are my brother from another mother. Yes. Yes. I've looked into all of those things and I love that from the physical to then also the spiritual and what the research shows on spirituality.

It's it's fascinating because it is uh everything what science is showing is showing and revealing what the word of God and Jesus and God himself and how love works to manifest itself into transformation of life. So let's touch on that a little more because Grace Alliance emphasizes a Christ-c centered approach that combines the scripture with practical tools.

I am telling you right now that I need to get trained or or a certification from you guys honestly like I need one more look at my initials but I don't mind this one because this is this is what I'm trying to get people understand that that in the word of God the living word has so I mean he talks about do not conform you know to the patterns of this world but be transformed by the

renewing of your mind and so can you just tell me a little how do you balance that and and talk about your program a little more.

Yeah. So, when I when we talk about like scripture and and science integration, I'm I'm I'm a I'm a big nerd with all that. I I spend about 20% of my time just reading, listening to podcasts, all kinds of books, articles, all these things because I'm just so curious.

It's not that I want to become an expert. I'm just I'm a joyful skeptic. So, I'm just like, let me really let me look that up. Okay, let me see how that that works. And so um and so through this journey uh what I've understood is that there there is the joy of the scientific understanding and the joy of of what God has revealed in his word and how they come together um in that that balance.

So, so for example, like self-actualization, uh self-determination theory, adult adult development theory, transformation theory, change psychology. When you look at all of these practices and you look at all of these things, they only just reinforce what we get biblically. Um, and so that we and and again, what even from like a social work or or even in occupational therapy, what they talk about is that empowerment model and stuff.

And that's that is what God is doing. He is empowering us uh to live in union not to be slaves and servants friends uh with Jesus in for the transformation. And so we see that empowerment and the belonging.

And so with all of these practices in in the therapeutic and scientific world and you see the evidence base how they are changing people's lives because of these basic principles of how do I get you to be empowered renewing your mind on what is good and what is healthy renewing your practices and so you you look at from empowerment environment and belonging but sometimes in the church unfortunately and Because I've worked with a lot of people and this is a whole other conversation.

Yes. They get it backwards. They get hey if you get behavior your if you get your behavior right then you'll get your belonging from Jesus. If you do all these things then Jesus will be pleased with you which actually is backwards to the gospel.

The gospel is always about you belong here and if you belong this is the way you go. So I I actually have a an intern because I have a I used to have a partnership with the university and I had this the religion department and I had a intern I would train her uh and we would do groups and I had other interns as well but I would explain to her it's like the Holy Spirit's job is not to convict you of your sin.

What kind of relationship would that be if that's all you did every day is to look for what was wrong with you. Actually, the Holy Spirit's job and role is a comforter, a counselor, a teacher. And what do you think he's trying to show you every day?

He's trying to remind you of who you truly are and how you are loved. He's reminding you of how good you are. And that goes into a lot of scripture and things like that because if we lived with like if you lived in your marriage uh and you went to your your husband every day and said, "Sweetie, honey, babe, whatever.

Uh could you just point out everything I'm doing wrong?" Oh my. And if you live like that, if you live like that every day, you'd be like, "Hey, there's not life here." But again there is because love will show you the light of what is not on target and what is not aligned.

If you start with sin then you are basically creating a sin consciousness a sin management and it's just a and you're just increasing anxiety depression and all those effects. But if you start with love and the grace of God, then you create a love grace consciousness, a love grace management, and you start to see the world differently and it's a reframing.

But that that those are the concepts that are behind a lot of the science that's already there in the science and a lot of these therapy models even like what you're doing. You're helping bring to life what is grace and here's how grace works.

Yes.

Let's stop making it Christian because I always because when I was in this journey and I got counseledled that hey you could pray fast do all these things and it's like okay I'll do that and then it'll last for like 15 minutes because I'm in distress and I'm like Lord if there is grace then make it practical and that's what that's the heart of what we do is if there's grace and I'm going to tell you that there's grace and I'm going to tell you that you just need to trust God.

Well, then I need to give you some tools and some insights of what the scripture and what that union in Christ really means for transformed living. I'm not going to cure your mental illness. And I'm not that's not my aim, but I bet I I tell you what uh if you learn these things, you will you will live a transformed and flourishing life despite what your condition or diagnosis is.

And the research supports that. And I can that's that's that's a whole other Oh, no. I would love to go into the research but what you're saying is that you know once you understand that love God is love and that grace then you will shift your perspective and instead of seeing God against you you'll see he is for you.

You will also see things differently on human behavior. And you start getting your power back and your identity back without giving it to everybody else or looking at on social media or trying to be love and accepted. Like I'm already love and accepted.

This is why I do what I do, right? But back then, because I was ra, you know, and I'm not going to put denominations down or religion like other rel religions down. I mean, I was raised Catholic and that model of, you know, first grade, the nuns telling me I put this bloody man on a cross and I'm sitting there like, I don't even know this white dude.

Like, what do you mean? And and so, you know, I grew up in Queens, New York, and so with a single immigrant mom and it was just a rough go, too. Like, I get it. I get that whole thing. But now that I look at the journey, everyone has a purpose. everybody, no matter how bad something has happened, no matter how bad, because when you see the love and the grace and you see humanity the way God sees humanity, it's a gamecher.

No matter what label that you have, you know, I love that, Joe. My gosh, this is what you're saying is is all scriptural. I mean that that like when people like oh you're born into sin and all this stuff is like if you keep going with that narrative where's the hope because the scripture shows uh that we are much different and God sees us in an original goodness and an original love and that's what Jesus came to restore.

Yes.

Yes. to restore us in him to give us an understand and to show us how to behave because there's a lot of naughty people out there and I think it's you know because of ego instead of being in the spirit to me it's humility and understanding your purpose and when people don't understand that they're so overwhelmed in trying to fill or get the next high or the dopamine hit let's go into the science now let's do

that because I think that understanding of how scripture and you know integrating the neuroscience would be really beneficial for the listener.

Yeah.

Well, I think that uh uh so you know like um and I learned this from some of the science and different factors and that that when you are in your most spiritual state and you're you're in that um that that that gets into the conversation of transcendence and stuff and I've seen people with very serious mental illness diagnosis um have transcendence of the love of God which they've never had before and so you could see this transformation and it affects their life uh and it affects everybody around them.

And so from a from one of the things I've learned about um spirituality and and the and the neuroscience is that um and and this is this is uh um some of the research from Dr. Lisa Miller.

Um she's got some great material uh that and uh she's got a book called the the um the awakened brain and then she's got a book on uh spirituality with children um and and understanding that process and she really just dives in and shows you all the neuroscience of how this works.

Um, and I've been I've been following and looking at her research even from the beginning when we started, even before she wrote her books. And and one of the things that she found that that um that when you're practicing that spirituality um and the neuroscience is actually the cerebral cortex actually gets thicker in the brain.

Um and so just because it's regulating emotions and and different things with the cerebral cortex. I mean, we can get a little cheesy. It's like, whoa, it's interesting. The helmet of salvation, you know, it's like, wow. So, I mean that let's do it.

I I'm all about cheese. If people know me, I am. I'm just like from a symbolic standpoint, but I love it. But what that shows is that even for generations after um within that that showing that the neuroscience shows that um that the children that are in these spiritual practices and this spirituality um don't have the the same challenges as their parents because uh that even being predisposed to major depression disorder and things like that.

But then you even see this mental health recovery um and these lessening of these symptoms because of the spiritual practice of that. She also points out that um the the same neural network that depression runs on in the brain is the same neural network where spirituality works.

So if we could get really deep uh into that understanding then it really would get us to start asking better questions because that depression um is of it often leads to a lot of doubt and doubt is often the the gateway to wisdom and true understanding of meaning and purpose in God.

And that's where suffering comes in. And so we're not we're not uh avoiding suffering. We we are learning how to work down the symptoms and work through it.

And so with that neural network with the spirituality it actually it actually is a unique place just so God that he would be in the same place of our suffering in that so if we learn how to to understand our spirituality then that starts to rewire our brain towards comfort and calm and then uh it also works into changing our nervous system and how and so again from the brain and all all of those factors um

and spirituality is the only state in the brain which I've learned that you can both be in calm and uh threat at the same time.

There's no other state that you can have that balance. So being in that understanding and and when I say spirituality um the way it's defined is having a close positive association association and a a connection with a benevolent and loving God. There are studies that show different types of views of God and they they only encourage and exasperate the mental health conditions.

But that benevolent view of God and that personal connection um that is actually linked to mental health recovery faster and people recover faster in that. And we see this in our groups.

We see it in our studies that we've done with deep trauma uh issues. the the studies that we've done in in trauma that we did those in refugee centers during the Libya crisis and the the results out of that were phenomenal and all I did because I I was overseas and I knew the Muslim culture and things like that.

I didn't need to, you know, I needed to show them the commonality of how love and mercy works because of that's what they they know Allah, you know, mercy of God and these are the same concepts and stuff. But through even through that that that study they showed remarkable trauma recovery uh significant in only 10 weeks these are people who have already been there for six months and living in a refugee center and a camp.

So again understanding these these concepts the neuroscience the brain will change like you said neuroplasticity way we the way we do things and so even spirituality the the spirituality and the practice of spirituality it will heal addiction it will change the brain to numb that addiction uh down and so it works we're not talking about overnight but we're talking plasticity that works in grace and that continued change and again I'm not worried about somebody, you know, you know, do we have this stronghold?

Do we have this and all that stuff? I'm just like, I know what I do know is that we have a a love hold on you. And you just need to see that and let's go through the journey because in our materials, what we're helping them is to change the lens of God and his grace with you, not a God that you have to get to.

Then the tools, the science and all these things, how do we work this down and work this through? Oh my Because we are not trying to avoid suffering. We're not trying to avoid affliction. The biblical nature and the biblical narrative is full of affliction.

For example, Psalm 119, you know, it's broken down into 22 sections and 22 because there's 22 uh letters in the Hebrew alphabet. And each section is every section is about how do we rely on God and his truth, his word in affliction. The wow 19 is about affliction and how affliction is training us and how it's changing us within the truth of God so that we walk with a light on upon our feet.

We walk with illumination. We walk with instruction with principles that not only restore our souls that and restore our lives but that we can walk through any challenge. And that's what we talk about resilience. And resilience is a is not just a skill, but it is a complete character transformation.

Yes. Yes. I I did a I have a blog out there with the five Rs, and that's what I'm trying to put together for this um presentation. My goodness, man. This is such a God moment for me right now because last night at 3:00 a.m.

I'm awake going, "Lord, I know something's missing in my presentation. I finished all my my slides on Canva and everything and about this." And I'm like, you were calling me to do this and now what you just said, that's what's missing. I need to really give the audience more of this to have the understanding.

But I now that you gave me everything you're saying, any resource, I'm going to put it in the show notes because listen, this is why I do what I do.

Because, you know, if it could hit masses of people to understand, I'm only one person and I'm only capable at this point in my life to see a certain amount of clients, you know, and I bet you with you too, this is probably why it's so passionate because you have this and now you're teaching this and then teaching other and and the Lord is using you.

It's the beauty from the ashes. That's some Christianes right there. So Joe, like I mean say that someone's listening to this episode right now and they're suffering and they're just like I don't even know what to do, where to start. What would you say to them?

Um this is what I what I often would say with uh when I would do it uh my coaching sessions with um um folks. Um, and I always, you know, I listen to their story. I'm very compassionate, empathetic. Um, and, you know, try to be there with them and be very present to, um, their story.

Um, and, you know, really after affirming their story, um, uh, I like to to give them an arrow. An arrow. Uh, first that, um, I like to say two kind of two things. One, I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know you can be better.

I know. I've seen it not only in science and the studies, but I've seen it in real life with people, not only our journey, myself and others. Uh, but I know that I know, but I know that I know because of the grace and the love of God, you can be better.

It will be a process. It will be messy but you can be better. And then the second thing I like to express to them is right now God is completely and absolutely satisfied with you. But you don't know my story but you heard my story and but last week I I I did this and I I just I I'm I'm right now God is absolutely and completely satisfied with you. you you should.

Yeah. My but but my but I I doubt and my my depression and and you know and and and I'm divorced and everybody's rejected me and I caused a lot of pain. Right now God is absolutely and completely satisfied with you and from there let's move forward.

Yeah. And so because I have to give them an understanding where the lens is uh because a lot of uh people that come in, they're coming in not only with um their challenge and how their challenge has disrupted their uh inner world and outer world um but the how they've also been ministered to by others and that gets into church hurt and and religious abuse, spiritual bypassing.

Can we go there for a minute? Well, it's it's it's a doctrinal hurt u because some of these views and different things um and so what what I'm trying and and again I'm I'm there to show them and to guide them into their own empowerment and their own tools.

And I have people that that come in and are like, "Hey, look, I don't want any of this God stuff. I don't want to do any of this Jesus stuff. Don't give me all that stuff. I'm here because my family told me I needed to be here and I'm doing it because uh this is one of the requirements."

And I'm like, "Okay, great. that's not, you know, hey, I'm going to help you get better. But then, uh, because of our conversations and and our unique approach on this, three weeks later, he's like, okay, hey, man, look, I actually started praying a little bit, you know, and I'm, you know, like, and again, because God is absolutely satisfied.

So, if he's absolutely satisfied, then that means he's absolutely safe. And again, that's what we do in our in our curriculums is that's what the one of the main comments that people give us. Yeah. I feel no judgment in this these curriculums. Wow.

In our Thrive workbook, which was we could talk about that too, but that's built off our coaching program. The way we do our spiritual section, I'm using psychology and I'm using neuroscience of how to restore that union, not to get them. I'm not trying to get them back into disciplines.

Love will create lifestyle. Yes. And will make you And guess what? Shame and guilt is from the world. To me, conviction is from God. So when you have that personal journey, relationship, love, and everything, the Lord will guide you and make you see things in a way, a gentle way of discipline.

It's not it's not like I'm smiting you and you're going straight to hell. I mean, I'll never I remember thinking that way when I was a teenager. I'm like, well, I'm going to hell. I'm just going to go and party it up. And that's exactly what I did all through high school, all through college.

I mean, it was until I was 29 years old and boom, I was studying at FAU, uh, women's studies. I was getting certified in women's studies and I studied three different, um, you know, the three different religions. And I kept studying Christianity and I'm just in there like, "Wow, Jesus is the first feminist here."

Like Jesus like really brought women forward. And I'm like, "Okay." And at that moment is when I was just like, it came over me and I'm like, "That's it. I'm following Jesus for the rest of my life no matter what it costs and the love and acceptance and everything and it's still a process.

I'm still human. My ego still comes in and and it's we're human beings but honestly that is my rel that spirituality is what keeps me going through grief. The book of Ecclesiastes. I love that book. And people are like, "You are so depressing."

Amen. But it is about understanding. You have to go through it, but you're not alone. Exactly. And that and that's the key is it there's belonging. I'm very big about the union. When Paul writes over and over, the Apostle Paul writes throughout the the the New Testament, he's always using this terminology of in Christ, in the Lord, the Lord in you, uh the spirit of God or the the Christ in you.

And so it it's uh you know I had a have a spiritual uh mom uh and you know so and she she would say you know to to know what she would say um to know who you are in in Christ is to know your identity to know who Christ is in you is to know your oneness.

Wow. And I just like if we don't understand because the thing is is that the the the the the Bible and the scriptures are meditative. They weren't meant for analytical review and stuff and we do systematic theology and and I get that that's we need those pra those disciplines.

But we have to understand that that that the the Bible is also meditative too because as as it is very analytical for our intellect it's also very mystical and it's a combination and it's integrated to with the mysticism and the the analytical and it's a it's a both a a wisdom and a knowledge as the as thec tradition would you know that what they the kavad and things like that where it's it's really about wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.

And that's what that means. And so understanding the Jewish nature of these things so that we walk in Christ. And and when you see scripture, you see that that scripture is that it's it's meant to be kayastic, bringing together, kayastic meaning it folds together, a poem that folds together and it provides that contrast.

And so that's where you get the analytical knowledge, but with the deep wisdom of the mysticism, that transcendent love. So for example, Psalm 23 is a kayastic poem. So verse one is supposed to match the last verse six. And you fold it together.

So read that first verse and then the sixth verse. And you see that contrast of that calm and chaos in the spirit. And again, it's also part of the messianic uh scriptures. Psalm 22, Psalm 23, and Psalm 24 are messianic. So what is Psalm 23 really not just saying about us, but what is it saying about Jesus?

Because that's what it's pointing to.

I want to know more about that just I know we're going to go into that but just because I remember when it came to me like what am I going to name my company in 2020 in the middle and and God's like you're opening up you know in when I'm I'm in prayer a lot and so it's like you're going to open up your own and I'm like no I don't want to do this I was

working at a high school you know during the day and I did it in July you know July of 2020s went through the valley therapy and I'm like I don't know I had all these names and it was just my family and I going I don't know I don't know and then that was it I'm like, "Oh, Psalm 23."

Because it is. I'm trying to get people to understand that they have to go through. So, can you maybe now go into that part of things like not the psychology, but the spirituality and you know, the ordained minister of you? Yeah. I I think it and this this goes into so many different directions because I think that when we look at um the spirituality I and people use this analogy as well, but I think we're talking about a kaleidoscope of race.

Um and so today, you know, I always tell people like, you know, my revelation of God and science and and what I know right now today it's a scratch and sniff sticker and it smells like grape. Tomorrow it may smell like orange. And I'll be, "Why does it smell like orange today, Lord?

What?" You know, and then you'll come and say, "You know what? Actually, it smells like lemon." And I'll be like, "Really? Why? Why does it smell like lemon?" You know, and I think that's what we're meant to sharpen each other. Iron sharpens iron.

We're meant to paint a picture. We're all working together in a collective collaborative way to show what grace looks like through uniqueness. So from the spiritual piece of all of this, um I'm I'm I'm very keen about showing the grace of God in us in where we are positioned in God as we work through this journey.

This is not about um search more sin. This is not about search more for spiritual warfare. This is not about uh search for more faith and and all those things because they get that. Well, because that's a question is like well did you do your quiet time?

uh is there any sin in your life or is it okay there is a place for that and I get that and I understand that but I think that that if we start to show the the the belonging and the interconnectedness and the interconnectedness with Christ and the interdependence with the body and so we that's where the spirituality lies and so that the grace is working in us and it's a very sufficient grace so even when

Paul talks about that in in Corinthians where he's like the the the for my thorn uh and the grace uh is sufficient.

What what Jesus is talking about in responding to him is basically me myself is your sufficiency. And so Paul's like, "Okay, well then I will boast in my weakness because I have the literal face-to-face encounter."

And so again from the spiritual piece and I mean it really gets into really kind of what specific questions do we want to talk about when um we do this but but I think it's really I'm trying to help people understand what is their true identity and that's what we're trying to do is understand what is your true identity because it is good.

Everybody's teaching you how to look for bad but actually you're good. And if you like Ecclesiastes Yeah. Okay. What is Ecclesiastes 7:29 and what he says there is basically says what I have found in all of my studies and all this stuff is that God made man and woman good and true and upright.

We've only gone off because of our schemes. So that chain that that's an interesting narrative. Yeah. We are created in goodness and so in that goodness we are to live in that goodness. And again the word tove is the is the word good.

And the word tove actually means purposeful and meaningful. It doesn't mean just like oh hey this is good. This is uh this is good. This this is a good conversation or you know this is right actually it's like when you pick up a you know an iPhone or whatever you know and if it's used or a used car it's like this is good.

It will do its job. It will do get you where it needs to go. It's in good condition. It's purposeful, meaningful. So I I think from a spirituality place, we're we're trying to show grace and goodness in the sense of you have grace to overcome, right?

And you have goodness to live a flourishing and meaningful life no matter your condition, no matter your challenge. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I start a lot with my clients with Psalm 139, right? I'm And that's how I start the podcast.

It's because a lot of people that do come in, they've either come with a lot of church hurt or they don't even know God, but they just come from the like the streets, the inner city, and a lot of hurt from there or intergenerational stuff, you know, because I work with a lot of um the BIPO community.

And for people that don't understand what BIPO means, and it's not a political term. might just like it because it's short and sweet and and you know the black indigenous people of color because I am that you know and so um it is having them understand despite you know where they got their information from God because like you said earlier there's some people that come in that want nothing to do with that part just give me

the logical sign and that's okay because that's how God made their personality you know very logical like no emotion or what until we you know they have to feel safe.

That's the key word. And to understand who they are to give them back their autonomy in a way or or because they felt so out of control, you know, that that whole fight, flight, freezer, fawn, you know, they have the fawn thing added now.

But I like how you separated the fight from the other two. Mhm. And I I want to know a little more about that because I've never heard anyone actually do that. They've always put all three or four together. Can you explain that a little more?

Yeah, they've done studies to to show how it it that when you're in that state, it's actually a different state in the brain from a neuroscience perspective. And what it's doing um is actually fight is actually courage. It's basically the state of the brain that's basically telling you I want to learn from this and I want to learn how to get through this.

Fight and and freeze is is actually kind of a response and it can lead into avoidance. Fight is actually the approach goals. So you know from psychology you have avoidance and then you have approach. And so you have the avoidance aspect but then you have the the fight is the approach.

I want to learn from this. I want to learn how to get through this. And so if you if we understand that when you're going through a panic attack uh and you're going and you're h having that kind of reactive element um the brain is actually trying to learn how to get through it so it knows what to do in the future because the brain is not a stimulus response organism.

It's a predictive or organ. It doesn't respond it stimulus. It's always uh predicting the what's going to happen. So it's a it's a future thing. And the thing is is that the brain only changes with experience. That's why you have to have exposure response therapy.

You can't just have a sermon or a good conversation or whatever and it could be life-changing. But if there's no experience to that that element, then the brain doesn't rewire and doesn't give new uh information. So in that that fight stage, if you if we understand, hey, when we're in fight, what can we do?

How can then what how can we be creative? So then that's that's the that's the fire professional. How do we know you're feeling that and you want to do something, right? Then let's give you the tools of what to do there. So again, that's a um there's and you can go look that up.

There's there's lots of studies on that. Uh Andrew Hubman um if you're familiar with him. Oh my god. Yeah. Huberman Lab.

I loved he did a whole podcast on explaining that um with the the studies that they did and he just he probably a couple years ago but but again he he talked about that whole balance of understanding that so that if we knew that then we could work through our fears, we could work through our challenges. we could work through the the the things and again it's not just a self-willpower thing but it's but again from

our narrative is well then what does that mean in union with Jesus and through his spirit uh and the love of God the father the source of all things so and then you talked about Psalm 139 you know the Psalm 139 is all about presence of God in challenges and so therefore he ends You're everywhere.

You're with me. No matter the chaos or the calm, you're with me. So therefore, if there's anything, any grievance in me, then just help me let it go so that I can embrace this face-toface life and love with you. Oh gosh. Oh man.

I could sit here with you for more hours. I am telling you. But I'm not Andrew Huberman. I'm not Lex Freriedman. And I'm not Joe Rogan. Not yet, anyway. Well, I'll never be a man, but you know. No, I know this conversation is deep and it it does go many.

I could I want to bring you back on, man. I I do if you don't mind to talk about other things. I love this. So, I want to now just leave something for the audience like what practical tips. Do you have workbooks? Do you have free stuff?

I mean, tell me about what we can leave the people that are listening that are either wanting to get certified in this or like their other therapists cuz I have interns that listen or other therapists that want to learn and I have just, you know, people that are looking for free, I hate to say free therapy because they can't afford it or they're hurting or they're scared or they've been burned by the system like like you mentioned early on.

Um, where where would you send them? where where can we give him some stuff? Yeah. So, for more information, of course, uh our website is mental healthgracealliance.org or you can just Google grace alliance and it'll pretty much take you there. And so, what we do is we offer free workbooks, okay?

All these curriculums that we have uh that we've made available and the curriculums are for uh the individual and that's called living grace.

Uh we have a student version that's called a redefine grace and then we have a family and marriage version which is called family grace and those are all free and so then we have a uh which we built our organizations again we could probably talk about this another time but the which is our thrive workbook and it's um it's 200 pages of physical mental spiritual and relational modules of how to understand the mental health recovery process.

I coached somebody using this. This is what we This was our coaching program, but the coaching program grew so big into a national waiting list um that I shut it down and we turned it into a workbook for that anybody could have and do they can do on their own with groups.

We revised it. I spent three years revising it uh with our team and uh and so that it's uh very easy and it's very constructive for group use. It's all science behind it, but it's really simple for anybody to use and it is free.

Everything is free. all these workbooks. We used to sell them, but we just said, you know what, there are way too many barriers, and this needs to be free. And this these groups are all over the world. They're using in all kinds of different uh formats.

They're being used at churches, ministries, group homes, shelters, and even professionals are using it in their in their practice because it it supplements a lot of their clients. So, they'll have their one-on-one practice, and then they'll have their group for their clients. And and it works really well and it integrates really well.

We keep it really simple. It doesn't replace therapy or medication, but it helps you navigate it and understand and supplement if you are in that professional. And people that are not getting it, it makes a curious to go get some uh more professional help because you and other psychiatrists are uh part of the healing community.

So, um and so that's the workbooks. Those are free. And then our training to start a group is absolutely free. The training is very simple. Um, and so they can do the videos. Um, and so again, to start a group or to access the the workbooks, all free.

Um, and then we have blogs, uh, that are very insightful. Uh, and and so I th I throw in a lot of little science and faith and show you how this works. Uh, and then we have videos that are free. Uh, and so that I explain a lot of stuff on the videos and things like that.

So there's a there's all these resources that we have for free. We are a nonprofit. uh if you'd like to make a donation, please leave a donation because your donation is not only for for you, but it's for uh thousands worldwide to access this these resources and have no barriers.

As I talked to a church pastor who was starting a group and he said uh and he said I said, "Yeah, they're they're all free because we're removing all the barriers." And he he looked at me and he said, "Uh well, actually, then there's no excuse.

There is none. There is no excuse. So, how do I, as a professional, like a licensed therapist here in South Florida, like, you know, I've tried to get, you know, I' I've written letters to churches. is I've tried, you know, I'm actually looking for um just ways into, you know, pastors because they have different viewpoints and denominations and everything, but they also have a epidemic, I would think, of a lot of hurting people leaving in Groves, deconstructing their faith.

Okay? Because I have quite a few that are like, I'm done. I'm done with church. I'm done with church. And it's it is heartbreaking. It is a heartbreaking thing. you know, what can I do? I mean, is there anything I can do because say I'm I don't have a church home at the time, you know, so I can't start a a thing in my church.

So, what what do you think? What do you suggest? Like so as as a therapist reaching out to churches that or just how can I utilize that workbook? Do I start a group? I mean does it is everything there where say I am and I have an office and I or I could start a group therapy or with just this book does it have it where it's organized enough for any therapist to go and and create it and use it as a tool.

Yeah. When I started the organization uh when it we wrote these curriculums and we were talking about the development of it and and I my whole principle was if it's not simple I'm not doing it. This should be easy for anybody to start yesterday.

It is that simple. And so everything is laid out in the in the workbooks. So okay, and it's very visual. It's very easy to follow, you know. So here's a topic on medication. So okay, and again, so we just give you a scripture, you dialogue it, but it's dialogued in in such a way using the the the evidence-based process of experiential learning, discovery learning, things like that.

And that leads into empowerment. You go through facts, you have questions with that and then it leads into a tool and so that the group can utilize that tool. It's very simple. Uh we have people that that that they just start this and they don't have they have no background but we made it that simple for anybody.

So really when we talk about group leading I I tell them uh you don't need to be a group leader you just need to be a facilitator. When I lead groups I hardly ever talk. M I just facilitate the time and I about and so when we get done there, you know, I maybe I've said a few things here and there now they pepper me because I they know I wrote the curriculums and stuff like that.

So but again I'm like okay well I'll stay after 15 minutes but but again I think you can anybody can uh look at it, download it, go through it and go, "Oh my gosh, this is so simple. This is so easy. I could do this with anybody."

And really as a therapist, you could literally um have one of your clients lead it facilitate and you just sit there. When when I have my intern uh what I I this last intern I had, I told her by week three, you're going to watch me do this two times and I'm going to integrate you in in in it so you can have it a little two times, but by week three, you will be facilitating the whole group and I will be your co-f facilitator.

Man, wow. That's awesome. And so again, it's it's that simple to be utilized in any setting. And again, we do have a number of mental health professionals, a lot of dialogue with them, things like that that are utilizing it within their practice because it just hits that uh because they don't want to reinvent the wheel with all this spiritual stuff.

We've done the homework. We've done this process um so that they feel supported and supplemented um in that journey. Okay. And so, well, before we close out, I just want to have that understanding. You said you co-wrote this with somebody. Yes. Uh I originally de developed this with Dr.

Matthew Stamford. Um he was uh at that time he was a neuroscientist uh and professor of psychology um biomedical studies at Baylor University where we're we're located here. So he and I became uh good friends through the journey with my wife. Um he was the one that basically said your wife's a clinical miracle that you just never see men recovery that fast.

It's it's because he was involved and so um but when he and I started the organization together, we co-wrote the the the material together. He facilitated a lot of the studies and the research uh that we were able to do on on the programs.

So, but since he he did leave because he he had a great opportunity uh to for another organization in 2014, but we've just continued on. And so, this is where God's just kind of moved us on into more places, other places. Yeah. we can continue working and things like that.

But yeah, so he's he's another great resource that you can he's got a couple of books um out as well. Um but but again we've uh since then we have uh because we are an innovative uh group that's aim is to innovate and revise the material.

So they've been revised since he's gone and especially with Thrive, we I I spent a long time uh and our our team that uh revised all the things and things like that. But I love that. What was his name again? Dr. Matthew Stanford.

Stanford. Okay. Do you know any of the titles of his books? Uh, Grace for the Afflicted is a very popular book. Oh, I have that. Oh, I I never saw the author. That's one of the first books I got as a therapist, as a Christian therapist.

Well, no, I mean back before my son's accident, Grace for the Afflicted. That's something that I always was using. I'm like, you guys need to read this book. Oh, wow. So, so when he revised when he revised the book, he used a lot of our concepts that we we built together within our programs and things like that.

And so, he's just been able to to expand and pioneer in new ways just as we are, things like that. I think it was a, you know, God brought us together. He called it a grace collision. And so, it was like, but it but but and I remember him like, should I take this new opportunity?

I was like, Matt, this is such a great this thing is built for you. So, he is a great resource. He is a great um uh you know, someone that you could probably try to try to get on in the future. Yeah. But he's he and I started everything together and and developed everything.

We just we're just still pioneering on. I love it. I love it because you're utilizing well this is what we're supposed to do, right? Once we become I don't want to say wounded healers, but you know once we come through and understand our reason, our purpose and moving the kingdom forward and how we're all interconnected.

We're all interconnected. We are and and we have choices. We can choose to use our time to heal and heal help heal others or we can choose to not do that and and just I don't know stay stuck in a way. It's like it's it's a choice we make every we have choices.

It's the free will that we have. So listener, I hope that you choose to really learn and understand that there are tools out there like Grace Alliance that that you have the ability to heal. You're not stuck no matter what another human being told you with a nice beautiful uh diploma on the wall.

I get it that we all look for somebody higher supposedly than us to help and and I get it. I mean, you know, doctors and and and people in the medical field want to most of us go in to do the right thing.

We do. And sometimes we just get caught up in I don't know how do we say it with grace. Some people just get caught up within their ego and understanding like okay and then they you know you're trying to navigate an insurance system or a westernized system and it does more harm than good.

Um but it is about the intention of the heart. I really think that's what it comes boils down to the intention. And I could tell with Joe I just met him. I'd never met him before. So, his intentions are really trying to help you and others understand due to what he went through with his wife.

And we didn't even get to that yet or we're not going to this time around. Maybe next time. And I'm pretty sure you probably can um Google him and the story will come up because I did read a little bit about it and it was very inspiring.

This is why I wanted you on the show, Joe. So, any last words before we say goodbye?

I I I'm just I'm thankful to to be in the conversation uh with you and others and I think there's this is a u we're in a a new era of um psychology neuroscience and um you know even when I finished revising this in 2023 the thrive workbook I was like this is just outdated there's just so much and that's what we're looking forward to is um having innovative conversations and we're really thinking about the future of mental health not just trying to survive it now.

So, I'm thankful to be in a conversation with you and others and thank you for having me. Oh, of course. Thank you for being here and remember listener to always always trust in the Lord Lord in the Lord. Guard your heart and renew your mind.

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