Why Men Struggle With Emotions: Fixer-Type Masculinity, Anger, and Healing

Hey there fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor podcast where I hope faith, science, and whole person healing intersect. I'm your host Diana S Rice, licensed mental health counselor and certified integrative mental health professional. And today we're diving into one of the most important and under discussed topics in the field, men's mental and emotional health.

You know that guy who can't or won't talk about his feelings? The one who tries to fix everything, stays busy, stays strong, and swears he's fine? Yeah, that's the guy we're talking about today. And my guest, John Waller, LMHC, has built an entire practice around helping that man heal.

John is a licensed mental health counselor and the owner of New River Counseling in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, where he specializes in men's emotional health, relationships, and personal growth. With over two decades in the field, he's helped countless men navigate modern masculinity, connection, and purpose with honesty, humor, and compassion.

In addition to running his practice, John teaches personal development as an instructor for the Real Course Seminars and serves as senior and support group manager at the Folk Center for Counseling where he mentors the next generation of therapists. A true Florida man, John grew up in Jacksonville and has lived across the state before settling in South Florida in 2008.

When he's not in session, you'll likely find him enjoying a Friday beach day, catching live music or a stand-up comedy show, playing soccer, or spending time with his family. So whether you're a man listening in, a woman trying to understand one, or a clinician who works with them, we hope this episode will give you a deeper understanding and some encouragement.

John, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Okay, so Florida man. All right. I just want to let you know, right before I came on, it reminded me back in the late 1900s when the internet just came up and somebody said, "Hey Diana, have you put your whole birthday and year and just wrote Florida man next to it?"

Because it was a it was a thing back then. I remember that trick. Yes, there's always a story. Yes. Okay, wait. So what I did right before I popped on here with you, I'm like, "Let me see what comes up." I totally forgot cuz this was a long, you know, this was 20-something years ago.

And I'm like, "All right, so on November 18th, 1971, the big Florida man story wasn't about a bizarre individual, but two inmates who escaped Florida State Prison in a homemade tank constructed from a forklift and sheet metal, making headlines as they fled in a barrage of bullets to freedom, a truly unusual prison break."

Wow, that's an that's an impressive feat actually. I'm impressed. Oh my gosh. And so to me, the reason why I thought we should Well, first of all, you said Florida man. And and and it's rare to find a true Floridian. I A lot of especially here in South Florida, I'm not a true Floridian.

I came here in 1982. So Anyway, and the Florida man thing, that just made me think like, "Okay, let's get the listener to maybe chuckle a little because right now the world's pretty sad." Pretty sad and and and I'm trying to do my small part to reclaim Florida man.

You know, it's it's not just always about the fact I could do uh uh things that people are doing, that there could be mature Florida people around here somewhere. I love that, John. Yes, see? See where we By the way, do you know the secret of that phenomena, the Florida man phenomenon?

I have no idea.

It's because of the Florida sunshine laws. It's it's all these uh uh uh dispatch calls are public information. So it's a special thing in Florida and that's why we have all this information about all these wild police calls that happen. Oh, and so other states don't have that?

I don't know what other states have it. I know that it's something special about Florida that we do have it and that's part of the reason why this really got out there. It's available information and gets reported everywhere. Yeah. And and then it's just like a I hate to say it's a joke throughout the world, but you know, Florida it is.

But I'm glad you're we're going to reclaim it together today. Nice, I like it. All right. So let's let's talk about now the next thing of like I remember meeting you. I remember the first time I saw you at one of these networking meetings and you just stood up.

I think we were at an art place or whatever. I don't even know. And you were the only dude. Sounds about right. And you the way you just stood up and and you described like, "Hey, you know, yeah, that your elevator pitch." It was just like it took me aback and it made me chuckle a little.

And so I was like, "Oh, this guy gets it." You know, it's like it's a hard place because of many men that I know and I grew up around or even in my own family, they're just not, you know, "What? Therapy?" I don't Either they don't have time or "Come on, I'm not crazy."

Like those are the things I hear. So like how do you respond? Like especially with the feelings part, it's it's hilarious but also real. It's it's it's very very real and I I do think it's a sad truth of men have not we've not been socialized to be fully open with our feelings.

It's considered weak, it's considered girly, so to speak. And I really came into this because honestly, I was that guy. I was that guy and even for a period of time as a practicing therapist, it wasn't until I did my own therapy that I really did my own personal growth work that I've shifted and I now have this this bigger awareness of what's going on on the inside and what's being expressed out of me, right?

In connection and emotional expression and being in integrity with my emotions. Uh that I that I I was able to see the it's almost like a black hole of denial. Like I I did not know how emotionally restricted I was before and I imagine that's really what's happening for a lot of these men that are not emotionally connected.

They really don't even know how emotionally disconnected they are. Wow. And so well, I like how you said the integrity. Mhm. Because and how do you do that? I mean, I have some males as clients. But and I and I know how to work with them because I had to learn to to to you use verbiage Mhm. not the same as I would use with a female.

Right. Right? And so to me it's like the many are conditioned with with the pain or even the word emotions will stir them up going, "Oh my what?" Yeah. Yeah. You know, how what what what I know you just shared a little of like how you had to do your own inner work, but how did without going so too deep unless you want the audience to know, but how did you how did you do that?

What were the first signs or understanding of like, "Okay, this is not healthy." You know, because some people know how to compartmentalize.

I know I know men that do And honestly I we need leaders that that are able to you know, I'm I'm just thinking of the first responders sometimes when they're going to one of these emergency cases and there's children hurt and and or whatever and they have to So how do you work with that because you don't want them to totally disconnect with being human, right?

The humanity. I mean, so so you're mentioning you're mentioning first responders. I mean, that's that's an example where the in the actual work, perhaps they even recognize that if they fully give in to the emotional reality of what's happening. I mean, I imagine they just completely shut down and fall apart.

Like they have to compartmentalize in order to do their job. So I I do think there's something that very true about what you're saying. Compartmentalizing does have a have have a purpose, it has a need, right? So how do we work it with men?

I I'll I'll I'll speak where the the aha moment came for me cuz again, I was a practicing therapist. I thought I was totally emotionally sensitive and you know, women loved me, like, you know, they thought I was great. I'm a good listener, like I I didn't see there was a problem there, but it showed up in relationship patterns.

That since I uh did not have the sense of safety of that I could be emotionally honest with what I was experiencing, it would come out as people pleasing or it would come out as shutting down. And since and I'm speaking about men in general, but probably universal humans here, if we're not expressing our emotions honestly, they're going to come out sideways.

Right? So let's take anger for example. If a man's a people pleaser, he's he's afraid to upset others, when he's angry, instead of being open and honest about it, he's going to do what I call doing anger under the table. So he can deny that he's actually angry and that comes out through sarcasm.

That comes out through side snide little comments and then when they're called out on it they say, I was just kidding. I was just joking. Why are you so sensitive? Or might come out in other little passive-aggressive ways.

So it's it's there and that's usually where the clues are that there's some feelings that are not being expressed and for me it was it was that showing up in relationships that I finally had one relationship where she was able to really articulate it to me in a way that I I didn't hear it at first but it sat with it and like oh my okay, I kind of see her point and then that got me to therapy.

So I want all men to go to therapy for that reason. Yeah. Well John, that's the thing like when I say that to some of the males around me cuz I'm surrounded by many males and and I grew up getting it it's a weird cuz to me I felt more at home with males when I was talking and having conversation because of the logical stuff.

I mean I've been a very emotional I think I'm in tune with some because I've done so much work like you said with myself in therapy and being a therapist like I read and a lot and I try to learn a lot. And but what you're saying the sarcasm or the snide remarks or the the shutting down.

Mhm. Or you know and or the passive-aggressiveness. I've seen that but I've also seen culturally in in different cultures the anger is anger. It is anger. It's straight up just anger. Punching the wall, screaming, yelling. So I think culturally too you I see the different cultures expressing that anger in the male psyche.

Um And there I and there I would even ask a question of is it anger or is it rage? Ooh, can you tell me what the difference is? So so anger is you know the emotional expression the feeling your rights are violated something happened that that just wasn't right and you are expressing that and standing up for yourself.

When we get to rage it really comes from a place of not only expressing the anger but wanting to hurt and I think you know there's that classic phrase hurt people hurt people, right? I I can see rage as often times being truly just an expression of sadness and shame or fear being fueled into anger and then that's why it gets so destructive because it's the hurt piece that's also coming into it.

Wow. Wow, you are good John. Well, thank you. All right. Well, yeah, that makes sense. This is why I think I I worked with adolescents most of my career and so now even though I work with adults some of the things that I utilize because it is going into the basic of understanding.

So I will do you know bust out the emotional wheel. And and you know what I mean? And so you have the emotional wheel and they're just like what? And I'm like well here's anger but here's that's the umbrella and then I just start saying words.

And they're like resentment. You know and then they start to glitch a little but then I'm like no, let's work that out and and so I want to I want to understand this movement though because I work with younger humans and you know every generation has its thing and so there's this red pill movement, right?

And and I want you to help explain red pill movement, groupers, incels and their broader manosphere. All right. So from your clinical perspective and and plus I have sons I have a son you know that's that age not that he's those things. I hope not I I don't know but I don't see that but I do see that in the culture with the younger generation.

What do you think is driving men to those spaces? I I I really do think it's several things. I think the the the core issue is a difference and I'm talking of course in very generalized terms, right? The one of the core issues differences between men and women rather is men have way less connection in their lives, right?

I correct me if I'm wrong. My sense is women when they when they get together it's through conversation. It's through connection. It's through you know real emotional vulnerability. They do probably blah blah blah blah blah. For men when they get together it's action-based.

It's doing something. It's doing outdoor sports, watching a football game. Or UFC. In my in my household it's UFC and I kept the wifi going. I locked myself in the bedroom cuz I can't all these guys watching UFC. I'm like that's so bloody.

It's it's a it's a it's a it's a shared activity and it doesn't have the same level of opportunity for deep connection. And I I think the the result of that overall through the generations men have primarily relied on their wife or their partner and this is a heterosexual con context.

Relied on their wife or partner for that emotional core. Can't get it from other men, can't trust other men. I'll get made fun of if I cry. My romantic partner is the only person who can provide that emotional safety. I think that has been happening for a while and now we're in a place where my opinion I think women have accelerated in their evolution faster than men as far as self-actualization.

Realizing we can get some needs met without men. They have we have more financial freedom. We don't have to stay in a toxic abusive relationship in order to put food on the table. Yeah. And so a lot of men who perhaps were the ones who have these deep wounds and are acting in ways that are hurtful to others because they're lashing out uh women are going well, some will but a lot of women are not going to tolerate that anymore.

And so now they're left alone and they don't have a sense of community. They find these online spaces. And finally they got a place online where they can connect. They can feel supported, feel accepted. They feel like they have a common cause and they they're finding I think in the red pill especially they're finding in grouper.

They're finding an explanation for why they're not happy, why they're dissatisfied. I think the explanations are off. I have my explanation. I think that's what's happening there. It it makes sense. They're finding connection. It makes sense when you consider the history. Well, yeah and and it makes me sad because I have grandsons and sons and um for any human to feel like they're not loved or accepted.

Right? Because that's what I hear is is anger and resentment. Um I I'm also in the faith-based area and so what I see is a movement and a rise of going like the trad wives and going backwards to the 50s and it's to me and then using the word of God to bible dart humans to put them backwards and to me I'm going wait a minute.

It's it's like we are human beings together and we all have our gifts and our talents and we're meant to be in community respectfully. Mhm. Right John? And so to me it makes me you know it's like having to deal with the anger or the rage even if it's passive-aggressive or or there in your face cuz I've seen both in the communities I grew up in.

And so it's it's like how do you how do you work work with a client like that or what or someone like do you do couples therapy too or just men one-on-one? Pretty pretty rarely. I'll I'll I'll take couples but I'm very I'm very picky about it.

I I generally want to get the high functioning couples. If it's if if the man is having that much of a problem honestly I'd rather see him one-on-one because I at least for me and the way I work I think it's easier to create that baseline safety to allow him to start taking risk and I mean it's risk to start being emotionally honest, to start being vulnerable, to start admitting to some insecurity, some inner fears that he may be having.

I do think it's a little it's easier to do individual. Not that you can't do them couples. That's just my preference. Yeah and I think it's our training cuz you're LMHC as well cuz I'm not LMFT and and marriage family therapists know that or you know and then social workers have their own gifting as well and so to me my I know my training's one-on-one even though I've done group.

Mhm. And I've done marriage and family. I'm just like oh no, it's to me it's like it starts within yourself of the person that needs therapy and so teach because they could go back to a toxic environment. Some right? It's like we can't be like okay, now you have to leave because not everybody can leave at that time.

Sometimes it's about safety. Sometimes they're underage and they're like you know. So it's like teaching them tools. I would like to know what your modalities are with working with men. Like what is it your you know what what is it that you love to utilize sometime I mean you're probably eclectic like me, right?

But what's your What do you do? And there And there And there are stages, right? So, if if you know, if I get a guy and I get a sense of oh, he is so closed off from from himself, I got to start with most basic behavioral interventions.

Like, what are And And then also really love that. They love what's a concrete action step that I can take. What's something I can do? So, they can actually start feeling better. So, we come up with behaviors and I always give my like top five things you can do to start feeling a little bit better.

And then I use motivational interviewing in those early stages, right? So, it's motivational interviewing, it's allows for me to really hear him without judgment so that he feels heard, he feels listened to no matter how warped his world perception, others perception, self-perception are.

If he can feel heard and understood and accepted, that really is needed for the next steps. And the most The other benefit of motivational interviewing is that we can start exploring like, what are the consequences to what's happening? Is what's happening for you working?

Oh, that doesn't work, huh? Hmm. All right. Your your your your wife expresses a problem to you and you keep trying to tell her how to fix it and then she gets mad at you and stays in the room all night. Okay, well, hmm, that's not working, huh?

And so, it's a very like light, non-judgmental approach, but I'm still like really laying out the problem that there's a pattern here that you're doing that's not getting the results that you want. Yeah. Now, once that you know, starts to see some results, there's some trust there with me and then I can And then I can do some of the stuff that will probably scare him if I try to do it on day one of meeting one-on-one in session.

And that could be doing some breathing work, doing some body scanning. And if he's really, really closed off on his emotions, the body is the key. So, I'll have him close his eyes, breathing, where do you feel uncomfortable? Where do you feel pain?

Where do you feel discomfort? And we're able to explore that, put words to it, and more often than not, we're we're going to find some sort of um deep emotional expression. I remember one guy I did that with and it was in his chest.

We were doing the body scanning. I'm like, what is And after describing, I'm like, what would it say? And And And he said something along lines of like like, I can't do it. And so, that That's a breakthrough. I can't do it. Something he never would be able to say.

And so, we were able to then explore what that what that's all about. So, that's my general modality that I work with. And if I've got a guy, if he's really, really open, um I love doing more Adlerian work with him. I'll do inner child work with him um and really healing some of the old stuff that's contributing to our life patterns here that's not working.

All right. Well, let's Now that you said inner child, you know, the the father wound and mother wound that's thrown around a lot online. A lot. And I don't Listen, I'm a mom and And I know I remember when I first started learning psychology and I'm like, Freud just blames mommy for everything.

And you know, and I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, that that's a lot of pressure on us women back until Of course, you have to realize like educate yourself more and understand the whole concept of what is being taught, right? So, I realize like like how I put it with my clients, John, is that we all are raised by a village.

I don't care what part of the world you are in. We're all play raised by a village that told us narratives. Mhm. And

Yes. And it And to me, it's like that's where I start. It's like, what story was told to you about this issue, right? So, the father wound and the mother wound does come up every time. Every time. And I'm not blaming parents, right?

It's It's more of it's an understanding of where we are because blaming keeps you stuck as a victim. Yes. Yes. And it And it's not blaming, it's acknowledging that your parents are human and therefore they're not perfect. Ugh, John, that needs to be said one more No one, right?

No one's perfect. They're going to make mistakes. Just this weekend I I was working this weekend. We were doing one of these real course workshops and a mom expressed that I don't want to mess up my kids the same way that my parents messed me up.

And my response is, I got good news and I got good news. The good news is, no matter what you do, you're going to mess up your kids. It won't be as bad as you got, but just the fact that you're human and you're not perfect, you you you can't possibly be the perfect parent to them.

And when they're adults, they'll be able to take responsibility for their lives and seek healing, seek therapy, like heal whatever relationship rifts are with you. And And what's awesome is you doing the work, you're going to be able to do that work with them and really create like a deeper family.

Um But yeah, I I I I really think that's It is funny. Yeah, I I see that on online a lot and it's And Yeah, at the end of the day, our parents aren't perfect. I mean, sometimes these wounds are come from like big T trauma.

Let's be very, very clear, right? And a lot of it could just be our parents aren't perfect. And when we're kids and something happens and we have big feelings that are distressing, anger, fear, sadness, shame, we don't have the adult reasoning, the adult logic and context, or the coping skills to deal with it and understand what's going on, we create an understanding, a belief, I'm not good enough, I'm not important enough, others won't be there for me, I can't trust people.

And those beliefs that are cemented run our lives. Yeah. Oh, no, it does. And in what I see in some um it's a cultural thing cuz I know being a Latina, in my culture, you know, it's like machismo and uh boys don't cry.

But that boys don't cry goes along through the whole all cultures. But it is like, you know, suck it up, buttercup, like uh toughen up. And I get it.

I'll give you something to cry about. Oh, gosh, that was That was me and I'm A FEMALE, SO. THAT WAS ME AND THAT'S the that like I had a process that as as a And I think that might be why people are like, you have masculine energy.

I've gone I've gone to circles with women, John, and I'll go in there and I think what it is is because I was raised by a bunch of women. There were no men around. And us women um but they were all tough, working, you know, they come from a different country and they come to for the American dream in the '70s and they're like, ay, ay, ay, you know, you're going to cry, I'm going to I'm going to beat your butt.

And any And I was so sensitive, John. I still am. And I cry and and I cry like this. I just have and that's who I been. I'm okay with it now. I will cry. Like, if you see me start tearing up, that's you know, you don't If I make out somebody else uncomfortable, well, that's their problem that they got to go to therapy.

Exactly. Exactly. Right?

Yeah, they're not comfortable being around that. Right. But the the whole, you know, it's so weird, the masculine energy or the feminine energy because I know some some men that are heterosexual that are what our culture would say a little softer. And I know women that are, you know, I could name them a bunch in my own family that were like, like the man.

And so, how do you like Is there really one right way to be a man? I don't think so. I I mean, I mean, the the truth is it's all All these characteristics, all these traits are on the spectrum anyway. We There is a lot of getting bogged down into it's either this or that, it's very black or white.

And if you are not manly in this one specific area, then you have to question your entire manhood. It's quite ridiculous, actually. Mhm. I I mean, I I I mean, I know for myself I I I would say in my history, just because of again, how I was raised, I definitely had more of that feminine side.

Why I became a therapist, right? And my first journey was accepting that. My first journey was just accepting that I'm a man with a strong feminine side and being okay with that and not making that a source of insecurity or not good enough or whatever.

And I think I did a great job with that. And now I'm in this different phase. I'm like, well, let me explore my my more masculine traits here, too, cuz I got that, too, actually. It's not black or white. Exactly. So, that's my my journey that I'm exploring, but I I don't know.

Everyone has an opinion on that. I I don't see why it has to be. I think if if if humans were to really just understand soul, like humanity, human, we're all very different, uniquely made. This is why I start your Hello There, Fearfully and Wonderfully Made because to me I and I I know you know I'm a woman of faith.

That's just something that I work with with a lot of my clients to have them to understand that we're humans. We're humans. And um People want to make everything so black and white, like you said, but living in the gray is where the peace is at.

I love the gray. It's me, too. The gray had You know, like I said, like you just said, I'm, you know, was in touch with my feminine side, that's why I became a therapist. And I And I just admitted like, I'm really in touch with my masculine side.

I do not like wearing heels. I do not like wearing makeup. And forget the freaking bra, okay? But I'm I also know in our culture and society that these expectations right? It's like how do you you know, work with men with those expectations or make them see especially that the hard way.

Like for example, a guy who walks in and is just not a man of many words and might be super stoic. He loves his family loves his wife and he wants to you know, okay, I'm here because I was told that I have this situation and I need therapy.

You know? And he just sits there quietly like you know, grunting. Cuz that's the stereotype of that manly man, the one I was talking about from the beginning, right? Is that the one that has no words. It's like very stoic. The one that sometimes we need that that kind of quiet strength.

How do you know the difference between the quiet strength and the guy who's just he's got some mental a personality disorder? Very carefully. No, I I I It's funny cuz I I've actually found that that kind of guy and this is why I often times prefer individual.

I actually find that kind of guy if it's just me and him talking there will be more openness. There will actually he will be more willing to talk. In the presence of his wife perhaps he feels more of those family pressures, cultural pressures of who he's supposed to be in the relationship.

But you get him with me and then I'm the guy that's not going to judge him. I'm not going to make fun of him. I'm not going to pick on him. I'm going to accept him. I actually do think there's more opportunity for that guy to the guy to open up.

And again, this is where motivational interviewing really comes in handy because you know, even let's say worst case scenario he doesn't see there's a problem. I'm going like, oh, okay. Fine. I hear you. You don't you don't seem to have a problem. But I'm curious what other people think.

Well, my wife says this. Oh, your your wife says this. Why would why do you think she would say that? And then there's just opportunities for them to at least explore the perspectives of others and and get them talking. Yeah. And so in the talk So let's talk about motivational interviewing a little more because obviously that's a modality.

I've heard other therapists say that's what they do. I really don't know what that is. I mean cuz we study so many different kinds of modalities and and then when the one that sticks to you sticks to you. Like to me CBT of course like that's I love that and then internal family system.

I'm in that rabbit hole. I'm not certified but I I'm in that rabbit hole and then of course Carl Rogers is my number one Rogerian. Oh, we love Carl Rogers. By the way by the way the folks center that that's our core with the groups that we do there.

We do these support groups that are 100% Rogerian purely reflections there.

What? He's a big influence. Yes. Oh my goodness. Okay, well, we're going to talk about that real stuff that because I also met the other guy at that networking event.

Oh, Mark? Yeah. And he does them with you, correct?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I invited him on the show as well. So okay, but before we go into that full the groups that you do, let's talk about the motivational interviewing just a little bit. Like is it just to me I'm just thinking it's positive questions.

What what what is it? I mean it's not that far off from you know, other modalities and takes a lot of person centered approach you know, theories into it. I found it to be most No, I found it. The research finds it to be most effective really in in treatments.

I worked in substance abuse treatment for I don't know almost 10 years. And it's so so helpful because denial is a feature not a bug but a feature of the disease addiction. So motivational interviewing it's that exploratory questions that's not judgmental, not confrontational but just getting them to start to explore the perspective of others.

And let's say I've got a guy that says, oh, my drinking is not a problem. It's fine. I I go to work. I pay the bills da da da da da. I might ask what would tell you it's a problem? How would you know that the drinking might become a problem?

Cuz eventually he's going to have that problem guaranteed or that problem already happened. He doesn't remember it. So it's just a way to to explore and and work through the resistance of denial. Okay, is that a training that you can get a certification?

Motivational interviewing? Like is there a book or how do you You know what my my my training primarily came through working in treatment. We would have people come in and then I would read about it. So I'm sure there I'm sure there's stuff out there but that's where that's where I got my training around it.

Okay, so let's talk about this real um the real course seminars that you is is real mean something or like what tell me about it? It means resilience, empowerment A stands for something and love. I feel to I feel I wish I had it written out right here.

How it's terrible I don't remember what the A is. It's all good. I'm sure there's a Is there a link that I could or a a Yes, the the the real courses the real courses.com. Okay, good. So tell me about them though. Like what who what is it?

Like I don't even I saw it in your in your bio and to me is this

Acceptance. So sorry, I got excited. Okay, so resilience, empowerment, acceptance and love is what it stands for.

Is this for men and women or just men?

It's for all the above. Everyone can come. So it's a intensive weekend workshop. We do Friday night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday. Wow. And what I love about it is that it feels like therapy on steroids because it is very intensive. We help people identify those we talked about that mother father wounds earlier.

We really help people identify what those are, how those decisions that they came up with in response is affecting their life and they're recreating those problems again and again. And then we do experiential exercises to rewrite that story. In addition to we talked about the emotional disconnection.

In addition to providing the space to have emotional expression at 100%. Wow. Yeah, so I don't know if you notice my voice probably a little deeper than maybe when you met when I talked to you on Friday. It's because you know, we did some emotional expression.

Oh, did you just have a course? Is this every weekend?

Yeah. Oh, no, no. We do we do it every We do it about eight weeks. We do it about six times a a year. We just had We just had it this last weekend. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so So that means Friday I saw you Friday night you did it and all day Saturday?

And all day Sunday. And all day Sunday?

Right. My body is physically tired but my my mind my soul is like you know what I mean?

Yeah. Oh, so you really love doing these intensives.

it. It it it it's such a calling because you know, we can do the thing that you can't do in therapy. In therapy someone comes for an hour. I have to trust that they're going to continue the work in between sessions, that they're going to do the homework, that they're actually going to think about this stuff and come back and build on it.

Having this this luxury of all these consecutive hours, this marathon if you will we have the time to dig deep and to challenge and to help people really point out what what's not working. And then we have the opportunity to do the experiential stuff to do the the course correction.

Wow. Okay, so now I'm like now I'm real curious about this. So they come in on a And when I say they, like how many people can come or are you doing this just for the one I mean like explain that. Is this a group thing?

Like what? Yeah. So so it's a group thing. So we'll have anywhere between I don't know 10 and 16 students who are taking the course at a time. And then we have a group of people who keep coming back because they just want to be a part of it.

They come back and they still learn when they're there. We have a we have a policy you take the course once you can come back as much as you want for free. What?

come back and now they may not be the focus but they're there to assist. They work with the students. You know, they can get involved in the experiential exercises and it's just a way to continue that growth. I I did this originally in 2016.

Wow. And I stuck with it for a year and I I just fell in love with it. I I think it fundamentally changed how I operate in this world and my confidence and my emotional integrity. So I just stuck with it and and teaching is one of the the best things that I love to do.

So who is this course for? Let's let's talk about that. Can somebody like who's listening to me right now come out of state or come out of the country to come and have a weekend like this? Yeah, absolutely absolutely. We're not going to house you.

So you know, you've got to get your own housing but I would say you know, we're going to make sure that you know, if someone has a more acute mental health issue, right? Suicidality, an active drug addiction, you know, this isn't for them yet, right?

They need to go get that immediate help. This is for the adult that is adulting. Right? They They They are functioning and maybe they have anxiety. Maybe there's depression. That can happen, too. But they discover that they are just They're just stuck. There's just some place where they're stuck and that's either they have the same relationship problems over and over again.

They can't seem to advance in their career. They have this dream about starting a business and they just never get the motivation to do it. Mhm. It's It's those folks who are finding I'm stuck in this loop. Why isn't things changing? Why aren't things getting better?

We're able to really go deep into what is happening there because chances are they are reliving the life lesson that they learned when they were kids as part of that childhood wound. Wow. Right. So, okay. And so, it is all the information's on that website.

I Of course, I'll put that in the show notes for anyone that's interested. Um and you said it's male and female could come and Do you split them up or how do you work that out? We're We're We're all together. Yeah, we're all together and and it's it's always taught by at least two people, one man, one woman.

Mhm. And we do that because transference happens.

Mhm. And it It that happened this weekend. Uh someone turned me into their dad. Mhm. And and the dynamic they always had with their dad played out with me. Right. And then we're able like, "Whoa, this is happening. How did this happen in life and why does this keep happening for you?"

So, yeah, having everyone there is how we really explore who triggers who as far as like who represents the mom, who represents the dad. And then when we do our little exercises, we can say you know, who who in the room energetically feels like your mom, feels like your dad and then they get to do corrective work with that person representing their parent.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so are you telling me that what I'm hearing and I've done a course like that in training just as a therapist where I'm saying where you're sitting around with strangers and then somebody you feel that energy or whatever inside and then you're like you get to sit in front of that person and talk about like certain things that came up for you while you're with therapist.

Is this a Is this somebody's modality? I mean, I want to understand the real course some more. Like how's that work? It It's It's based on It's based on the Adlerian psychology. Oh, okay, let's explain to the audience because remember I probably have people that have no clue what you just said.

So So, you know, one of the psychodynamic approaches. And by the way, I keep going I think it's hilarious what you said about Freud and blaming mom. I'm like, "How convenient that is, by the way." I That has nothing to do with it.

I just thought that was funny. Um but yeah, it's a psychodynamic approach again. A lot of what I'm talking about that these early childhood experiences, we create beliefs about ourselves and then we develop lifestyle patterns based on those experiences and are often called mistaken lifestyle um decisions or whatever patterns.

And that's what creates problems and the solution often is a sense of community, a sense of belonging, right? A sense of purpose. So, that's why we like to have all these people come back so that we can have that community piece to this.

Um Uh I'll I'll I'll I'll give you an example of of a exercise we do. It's called safe or not safe. Okay. So, we might have an individual who had some past trauma, often times folks with some sexual trauma, and they they don't trust men.

Let's say it's a woman who just doesn't trust men. We line up all the men and we have her just say to each one, "You're safe or not safe." She gets to decide. "You're a safe man. You're not a safe man." Just on how they appear.

Maybe they remind her of the perpetrator. Maybe they remind her of uh a father that was abusive. Whatever this the scenario is. All the safe men go away. We got the non-safe men and we do the work and the end result is that the individuals able to say to the men, "You are safe because I'm going to protect my little girl because I'm going to protect myself."

Right? Uh you are safe because I know I'm not going to give away my boundaries. And and and they come away with a big sense of empowerment and that opens up just more opportunities for that person in their life to have more connection.

Because, you know, are there unsafe men out there? Absolutely. And what we do is based on that belief, we shut out everybody. Yes. Right.

And that goes both ways because I see that with men like Absolutely. that they treat And I don't want to say like there's men out there that I've seen and worked with where they realize like, "Oh my gosh, I treated women like crap because of them that mother wound that, you know, mom left and cheated on my dad and took off and now I'm stuck with my brothers and You see what I mean?

And so, the the mother wound's so deep, but they don't know that and then the next thing you know, they're they're they're that um that avoidant attachment. Yes. Yes. Yes, cuz cuz I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt. Yes. The avoidant attachment, afraid they're going to get hurt, afraid they're going to be heartbroken and abandoned.

Mhm.

That needs to be healed. Yes. And that's the thing what I'm hearing about your your your real course seminars is that it If people This is This is how, you know, I try to simply put it like you're hurt, you heal, and then you go help.

Mhm. And that's what it sounds like in your group. Like the people come in hurt, you help them heal, and then you ask them to come back to help. They help and they continue to heal. Yes. through the helping. I love it.

And they continue to learn. I remember when I started coming back, I would sit there and watch the students do their thing and I had my notebook. I'm like, "Oh, that's me." "That is me." So, the learning continues to happen through that as well.

Yeah. And I think that's what's missing especially since 20 You know, there's like uh before COVID and after COVID. We have BC and AC and and That's true. Yeah. And and we're at this place though where I'm seeing more and more how people are longing for a live real face community.

And we were talking about earlier the online community, the groupers or QAnon or whatever you want to call all these online things that have developed. It It's It's even, you know, in honestly in my own life, I realized like the shutdown came. I'm an online therapist.

I do everything online. This is online. And that is why, John, you see me at every networking event. You're desperate to meet humans. Yes, outside in a community and and it's it because we've it's been easier now to do this. I have a lot of clients who work online.

You know, and um that's the thing that I tell them. Go I love this this real course seminar. I'm thinking this is something that they could go and do and they right? And still be with their therapist or do they end up with a therapist after or it's just something that they do that's an intensive and you get the tools?

I I would say I would say all of the above. You know, we have several therapists and it's run and it's run by therapists. Um and that you know, in that capacity, we're more coaches, but we It's all run by therapists because, you know, we want to protect everybody there and and operate from a place ethically.

Um but I I I think I think all of the above. We have folks who You know, I Have you ever met someone that you know, they'll they'll shoo shoo therapy. I'll never do therapy, but if you tell them to come to a training, they'll come do the training.

So, we get we get we get those folks. We get folks who were recommended to the course by therapists because they've been doing therapy for a while and, you know, it's beneficial, but there's just like a blockage. There's just a stuckness and we can do things with the amount of people that we have that you just can't do in an office, you know, one-on-one.

Uh and then they continue their therapy to reintegrate the new learning, the new messages, the new emotional integrity and empowerment into their life. Because that's the other piece of it, too. You You go to a weekend like that, it's a controlled environment. You develop this new sense of empowerment and boundaries and wow, I can really stand up for myself.

I can really speak my voice. And then you go back to your life where the things happened that that kept you stuck. Mhm.

And it really takes a lot of work to re-navigate that or to change the script that you taught other people how to treat you. Mhm. Wow.

of work. It is. Do they leave with like resources and tools? Absolutely. We give them what we call walking papers. Oh, wow.

And and and it's a all It's a list of the activities. We do a bunch of activities that they can do at home. Okay.

So So, they have those tools. Uh again, you know, we're happy to work with them um in different capacities if they want to keep doing the work individually. And then we tell them to come back. Okay. Again, they come back for free. Yeah.

Wow. All right. So, I could probably sit here and talk to you and pick your brain probably for another hour or two and but that that that's not fair for my listener and and for you cuz we you know or or me cuz I I have other uh clients and stuff to to uh take care of.

Life life stuff to take care of. Stuff life. Yeah. I'm trying to life right now. Trying to adult and and stay focused. Um because now I have all these other questions like not only the questions that I sent you. I'm just like, "Oh my goodness.

I had no idea." To me though, for the listener, like someone that's listening right now, is there any kind of tool set or books or resources that you feel like for someone that you know, what if a man right now that's listening that's like, "Shit.

Therapy's hogwash. It's destroying all this empathy. Um I I have a lot of people from the faith community that listen to this podcast and they're like, "Well, all you need is Jesus or the Bible." Or you you know what I mean? Like Uh what would you say to them?

Or is there anything that you would want to have them understand? Uh I mean I I I'm going to take this very empathetic and non-judgmental approach here and I would simply just you know, ask yourself the honest question. Is what you're currently into making you happy?

Right? To to to those guys who are into the red pill uh red pill red pill online master communities, you know, hey, you're into this. Is it actually helping? Do you actually feel that you're getting more love from others and and for a lot of these guys specifically from a woman.

You're feeling more loved by a woman. If it's working, great. If it's not working and you're just feeling angry, resentful, bitter, probably superior, but superior and really disconnected which and which ultimately feels dissatisfying in a way. It's like just you know, superior dissatisfied.

Uh consider there's an alternative out there. Yeah.

And you can give it a shot. You could you could take a risk. It is a risk. It requires courage. And it's available if you're ready. Mhm. I love that. Requires courage. To me it I hear a lot of like I just want respect.

Mhm. Respect. From the from the men? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what does respect even mean? Mhm.

It can be different, right?

Yes. You have to pull that apart. What does respect mean to them? Right. And I and that's what I think what I tell a lot of the guys sometimes when I'm doing uh trainings in a in a group setting like at an organization or school or something like that.

I I'm like, "Hey, this is psychoeducational training." Do you go to the gym? Mhm. Yeah. I'm like Do you did you ever have a trainer? Sometimes. Oh, all right. Well, then think of me as your psychoeducational trainer. There you go. Right? And we go with logic.

And then eventually I Speaking their language. You're speaking their language. Absolutely.

And that's the thing what I've heard is like a lot of it is about like I just you know, I'm not respected and this is how I gain respect. Okay. Cool. But deep down it's right.

where does it not work?

Exactly. Right? That probably worked in certain contexts, I'm sure.

Yes. It's not work It's not helping you feel more loved. Right. Right. And it's it's it's understanding that us human beings we're meant to evolve, not go backwards. We're moving forward, John. We're moving forward in in I mean, I'm not We didn't even touch AI and all the other things that's out there.

Nothing makes me feel more like a grumpy old man than AI, I got to say. I'm trying to dabble. I'm trying to dabble with it. Oh my god. No. Me and AI, we're we're I've learned a lot about it. But anyway, but but you see what I mean.

It's like really trying to take responsibility for self. Mhm. And shifting and changing and growing and moving forward and understanding. These are things that are hum- humanity, not male or female. I agree. You know? And so Oh man, is there anything you wanted to say to the audience before we say goodbye?

Um I you you asked me this question ahead of time and I was so excited to give the answer. And and this is the to the women out there who might be listening to your podcast who have that guy in their life and what can they do?

Mhm. So, this is based on my my experience working with couples and and working with these guys. I could totally understand the level of frustration that you have tried to send a message so many times, express what you need, express your thoughts on it and he's just not getting it.

He's just not hearing you. I totally get it. If per chance he gets it right, the worst thing you can do is say, "It's about time. Uh Why didn't you do this sooner?" Mhm. And stay and staying with that resentful response, I get it.

I get why you I get why you feel that way. What you do is you stop the progress that might be happening by going by going there because basically he's being punished for finally trying to show up differently. Yeah. Wow. Oh man, John.

You're spot on. That's you know, and and for the woman that just heard that, it's like understanding you do have the right to feel your feels. You do. You do. But he's just trying to get you to understand that like sometimes he finally took that step and and now he it could be that inner child wound that all of a sudden he's being disciplined and he's going to shut down again.

And we're not putting the blame on either or. It's understanding the the human connection and what is needed in that relationship because to me I ask this question, do you want you want the relationship or do you want to be right? Great question.

I love that question, too. Yeah.

That's that's that's that's so so true. Right.

And and that pursuit of being right really is the pursuit of what? Self It's feeling validated. Mhm. Right? Like being validated that I'm heard, that I'm understood. And we're pursuing that in these like sideways uh uh methods that just are not building connection and building relationship and actual communication.

No. And this is why I I think therapy is super important. You know, people are like, "You just say that cuz you're a therapist." I'm like, "No. I've I've hurt a lot. I've in a I've been married for 30-something years. I know that it is it is a lot of work."

And I'm not talking to those that are in an abusive situation. You need to find safety first. Yes. Yes. Right? That because as therapists, we both know that safety is number one. Yes. Okay? Uh we're talking about those that are struggling and they're just like, "Oh, this is the last chance."

Or like I don't know what else to do. Well, here we just giving you like try check out the real courses. And or go on Psychology Today and find Not every all therapists cuz I could say like I would recommend some and others I'm like, "How are they therapists?"

Right? So, you have you have to do your due diligence in in figuring out what will work for you, but it starts with you. It starts

I'm actually I and I'm going to be so bold as like if anyone's looking for a therapist, honestly, I would just directly ask them, "Have you done your own therapy?" Oh. Oh. Yeah.

Because I I I struggle to trust therapists if they haven't done their own therapy. I'm I'm probably not going to send people to them. No. I'm I'm with you 1,000% on that. Yeah. Because to me it's like we Well, that's a Okay. That's a whole 'nother podcast.

We're I'm going to have to come back. I love I we have so much to talk about.

I know, John. For real. For real. Okay, so where can someone find you? Uh so, you can find me my private practice newrivercounseling.net. And then we mentioned the uh intensive personal development workshop. That's at therealcourses.com. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. I'll have all that in the show notes and I thank you so much for coming on.

And listener, thank you for listening to us. And don't forget, trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified mental health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The views expressed on this podcast are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of any professional organizations with which I am affiliated.

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