From Addiction to Purpose: Recovery, Incarceration, Trauma, and Rebuilding Life

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor podcast. It's me, Diana, licensed mental health counselor and founder of Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. Let me ask you something. Have you ever felt stuck in a pattern you just couldn't break?

Maybe it's addiction. Maybe it's anxiety, depression. Maybe it's a cycle of choices that keeps pulling you back no matter how hard you try to move forward. Or maybe you love someone who's struggling and you're sitting there wondering, "Why can't they just change?" Today, we're talking about that.

We're talking about addiction, recovery, incarceration, and what it actually takes to rebuild a life after hitting rock bottom. Because here's the truth. Addiction is not just about substances. It's about pain. It's about patterns. It's about the brain, the body, trauma, and survival. And healing?

Healing is not just about stopping a behavior. It's about rebuilding identity, learning accountability, and finding purpose again. Today, I am joined by Andrew Drayson, author of A Vision of Hope, a powerful memoir trilogy based on his real-life journey through addiction, multiple treatment programs, incarceration, and ultimately transformation.

Andrew's story is not theoretical. It's lived. He his memoir while incarcerated, finishing it just before his release. And today, he's taking that experience and turned it into a structured approach to recovery, focusing on resilience, accountability, and rebuilding a meaningful life. He now speaks on addiction, recovery, and personal transformation, helping individuals, communities, and systems better understand what it really takes to change.

So, whether you're someone who is struggling with addiction, someone who loves someone who is, or someone who just feels stuck in cycles you don't fully understand, this conversation is for you. Because no matter how far gone something may feel, there is still a path forward.

Andrew, it's an honor to have a conversation with you.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Dana. I'm I'm glad to be here.

Awesome. So, your memoir was written during incarceration. For those that don't know that word incarceration, cuz sometimes I have people from all ages and walks of life, he went to jail, man. All right? So, and you finished just before you were released before Yeah.

Can you take us back to that season and help listeners understand what addiction actually felt like from the inside? Not just the behavior, but the mental, emotional, and nervous system state you were living in.

I mean, addiction is all consuming. I mean, it it consumes the thought process. I mean, it becomes an obsession where that is literally all that you can think about. And I mean, it hijacks the nervous system. And when especially with harder substances, when there you know, physical withdrawals, I mean, that just kind of perpetuates the loop.

So, um even that that um when I when I was incarcerated for the last time, when I when I wrote the book, that was the result of an overdose and I was was trying to quit and I'd gone some days and I wrestled with myself for for hours that morning before deciding, you know what?

I I am going to go up and I'm going to use and ended up overdosing and landing in jail and wrote the book and but yeah, I mean it addiction it's I mean it's it takes it hijacks your your body, mind and soul and it becomes your just as important as breathing, as eating, as sleeping, as any basic bodily function.

Your brain equates using as as important as that. There were actually studies that were done that that showed where they gave mouse mice. They there was a tube that had cocaine and a tube that had water. And the mice that would drink the cocaine would drink it until they died completely avoiding the water.

I mean it's not a huge difference between mice and humans in that regard, I feel.

Right. I mean this is why they study mice, right? It's like understanding. So when you're living inside your own body at that time, right? I want to understand because so many people judge a lot. Those that have no clue about addiction, many like to look at it and be like, oh it's just willpower.

Like come on, you don't have willpower. Or like what what Now that you've on the other side of it, what would you like to say to someone that has maybe that attitude or that like harshness or that lack of grace and mercy?

Well, I mean we we need to approach everyone with compassion. I mean I feel like that's just something that's that's missing in general from society as a whole. I mean, we look at others and just I feel like we've become so jaded and um you know, we don't realize that we all have our own struggles and that they look different depending on on your life circumstances, but it's just it's living with compassion.

I mean, these these people are sick. I mean, no one wants to be addicted. No one wants to have a substance that they have to have every single day just to feel okay. Because at the end like I didn't get high anymore. It just made me feel okay.

It just made me feel functional. Um so just to get through the day I'd have to use. So um you know, it's it's just it's just kind of maintaining that compassion and that that empathy and realizing that these are are sick people, but they have the ability to do great things.

I mean, a lot of addicts are are very high functioning. It's just they have this monkey on their back.

So let's talk about the monkey if you don't mind um from the past. It depends on how much you want to share about your story because I'm sure that your story people will either if they've experienced things like this before, you will give them hope and understanding the hard work that it it took because I also know personally people that oh I didn't know I was going to get emotional. that overdosed a couple of people I grew up with, right?

And they had a family and and kids and you know, it's just like a hard dealing with the the aftermath. They um say like he loved the drug more than he loved his wife. Or I want people to understand that struggle. Like can you share with me how how it started?

I mean whatever you feel like you need to say because I do not want to start digging into things that that, you know, will cause any pain for you. But, I also want people to understand your story of where you come from and how you might have gotten because now you look back and you're probably seeing, "Oh, I did not know about the central nervous system.

Oh, I didn't know the lack of resources. I didn't know if there was abuse or" Can you share with me how you ended up becoming an addict?

Yeah, and I mean, I didn't even know that I The first time I went through withdrawals, I was in jail and I didn't even know that's what I was going through. I mean, I I didn't know anything about withdrawals. I didn't know about addiction.

I mean, I was pretty ignorant to it, really. And, you know, I was a later teenager at the time. I mean, it's I feel like that's kind of a failure on our school system that we're not teaching kids about the reality and the dangers of life.

But, um so, for me personally, it started um as a as a trial, that was I was overweight and I had self-image and self-esteem um issues as a result of that. I dealt with a little bit of bullying. I mean, it wasn't anything major, but there was some bullying and so, I tried to compensate for that in every other way.

I mean, I tried to get perfect grades and be funny and friendly and just not give anyone a reason not to like me because I thought that my me being overweight was reason enough. So, um then, summer between 6th and 7th grade, I ended up growing like 6 in.

So, I was no longer that little fat kid, but I still felt that way on the inside and it didn't change how I felt about myself. And, so, I discovered marijuana and alcohol around age 11, 12.

And, you know, it at the time, it was more I guess kind of a rebellion thing because I spent my whole life trying to tow the line and not cause any waves and just, you know, be perfect essentially and it felt good to kind of do something that I wasn't supposed to do and get away with it.

And so that's kind of how it started and I remember the the I didn't get high until like the fifth time I smoked weed. That's when I learned how to inhale and and like after that it it was it made me feel different.

It made me feel different about myself and about the world and I liked that and um so then I switched middle schools to a much much bigger high school and kind of felt like a a fish out of water and that's when my marijuana use exploded.

It became all day every day and then it turned to pills and to cocaine and uh you know, opiates and you know

Was it a quick progression? Let's go there for a little bit because if there's like an adolescent or parent, you know, because to me your story can help someone understand and maybe help with prevention. You know what I mean? And so I get it.

I I was saying for me seventh grade is when I smoked marijuana and the and the the calmness I felt because I came from a home that that was just unhealed. I just want to because I don't want to throw anybody under the bus.

They're my family. You know what I mean? And it's understanding that I can love and hate the situation at the same time. Right? And so it's like where did you grow up? Uh Wisconsin. Okay. So you so that's considered the Midwest? Is that considered the Midwest?

Yeah, that's Midwest. Yeah. Okay, yeah. And so I And And may I ask uh what because I'm a probably a different generation than you. So I mean I don't want to I'm 37. Okay. Okay, so see look, I'm 54. You're 37. But do you I want the listener to understand, do you see what the situation is where we're both in seventh grade, different generations Yep. finding marijuana and it did something to me as well.

It It just calmed me. It felt relief. I felt relief. Is that how it felt for you?

Yeah, and I mean yes, but like to a bigger extent for me. Like that's how I felt with OxyContin the first time that I I took that and I mean that's I was hooked immediately. I mean it was just like a wave of calm that kind of washed over me and that's what really kind of hijacked my life for 13 years, but um

So it was Well, let's talk about that, too, because that is something I get a little annoyed by the pharmaceutical company cuz they created this mess, the opioid crisis, and then and then now it's just here we are, right? So it's like we're learning lessons from situations and where I think you and I are both just trying to break stigma for humans so they can get help and to have an understanding of the science behind it because you know, the central nervous system regulation.

I mean, we're going to talk about that cuz I'm sure you studied a lot of that and that's probably part of your curriculum. I think we had that conversation when we first met to see if you were going to come on the show.

So I I I want people to understand like there is help and hope and you're not totally stuck for the rest of your life in this hamster wheel because some people do get into like cuz you said you went in and out of rehab.

And um and incarcerated. How So were you in prison? Because I know there's a difference between jail and prison and for how long were you there?

Yeah, I went to prison twice. Um so I mean, all together from because there was it was a lot of in and out. I mean, there were a lot of shorter jail stints, you know, and they were from a month to 9 months and I mean, my prison sentences were the first one was 16 and 1/2 months.

Then I was out for 5 months, and I went back for 21 and a half months. So, I mean, altogether it was probably like 7 or 8 years, like if you add all of the incarceration time and and time on house arrest up, but you you I think we we were going to kind of touch on like the progression also.

Let's do it.

So, like I said, for me, when I when I entered my my freshman year is when the marijuana use really kind of exploded, and it didn't it didn't take that long after that. Um I I'd say what started me on the pills were I saw a a psychiatrist, and I I was having some anger issues and like just issues in you know, dealing with with my emotions.

I mean, teenager, you know, raging hormones, all that.

So, because I I I remember I like I I punched a hole in the wall like over something very minor, and like this was at the time when like LimeWire was a thing, and I was and I was I was downloading a CD, and I felt like it was taking way longer than it should, and I remember picking up the monitor, and like I was about to chuck it through a door, but I didn't, and I put it down.

And so, I ended up going to see a psychiatrist, and he put me on Xanax, and so that's what kind of started me on the pills. I started at 1 mg a day, and within I'd say 6 months I was up to 8 mg a day at at the peak.

So, four Xanax bars a day, and then

Wow.

then he added Adderall on top of it, and it it just

Wow.

that's what kind of got me started on that route.

Yeah, I mean, that's that I hear that. And I And I saw it when I worked at alternative high schools. Instead of people asking what that anger's coming from, right? And giving you regulation tools of and accountability then with compassion.

It was just I think that was my biggest frustration when I was doing my internship in 2004 is seeing the psychiatrist we would meet you know, and I was an intern and I'm learning and and they cared more about the folder the file folder and the medication management than they did the actual human being the child.

It was a child. That's to me now I look back. I have grandchildren that are teenagers. So I'm thinking like their brains aren't fully developed. You know, how how many how how much blood work have you done to see if these these medications are going to it's just a whole system that kind of I hate to say it failed.

Well, in a this doctor in particular like he was known as being like kind of a pill pusher. I mean they called him the candy man and he ended up getting Yeah, he ended up getting investigated by the DEA. I don't know if he was ever charged or anything like that, but I mean it was he was known for this.

Right. And and I don't want to Listen, I don't want to downplay because I know people have had healthy excellent psychiatric care. I know personally holistic psych- psychiatrists who love their clients, patients and they care and they they know to gently go in there.

So it I think in any career or field you have those who literally care about, you know, their practice because that's why it's called a practice. We're practicing on the humans or whatever. But it's like or are you just hurrying up because it's a money-making machine that's how you're seeing the human like, you know what I mean?

Oh, another one 15 minutes here you go. Here you go because, you know, you got to go pay for your yacht or something. I don't know. Sorry to be like that cruel or or but we got to have people understand not all because I you know, that all or nothing thinking is a cognitive distortion.

And also to understand that every human being has their unique set of circumstances and trying to find the right help. Sometimes it takes a few times. I know for me personally, like to find the right therapist, I had to go through a few and until I finally found someone that understood me.

Well, and I Yeah, and I mean it's it's just finding the right treatment for whatever you you need and I mean kind of to not equate it, but to compare it to uh you know, my addiction. I mean, I went through eight treatments before finding any kind of meaningful recovery.

So, you know, it's just finding the right fit and the right message when you're ready to hear it.

That's it. Eight treatments. Um well, the progression, so you went and saw psychiatrist. I mean, I'm hearing marijuana. I'm sure alcohol was part of it, too. No? Did you like alcohol?

Yeah, I mean it that that was never really like a I wouldn't call it a problem substance for me. It wasn't my drug of choice, but I mean I would partake, yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's like all goes together at times. Especially if you're like a adolescent, like you're you're you don't think futuristic. I know in high school when I was doing what I was doing, I was not thinking that at 54 years old I'm going to have some consequences from all the crap I did when I was younger.

Nope.

Right? And so, it's just like here we are now, you know, a 37-year-old man and a 54-year-old woman trying to tell whoever is listening, especially no matter what age, like there's still hope and it's never too late to take care of yourself. So, you write very honestly about shame, relapse, and identity because I mean, going through eight different treatment centers and going in and out of being incarcerated, like that is a lot of work on the soul.

I'm telling you, like and for you to be here right now, to me, I'm I'm like, oh my god, I I was so excited to have you on because your yours is a true story. It's not like you spent, you know, 20 years in in and out of continuing education and has a doctorate degree and you have lived experience and and to share like that you are now here doing something with it and you're now like on the other side of it.

Not saying it's perfect, I'm sure, because I'm still I probably you know, we're humans. We're still going to struggle and stuff. But what helped you move from seeing yourself as broken or a failure to seeing yourself as someone capable of growth and why is identity such a critical piece of recovery?

So, two two very different questions. Um the we'll we'll start with the identity being an important piece of recovery. Um so, that was probably like the biggest missing piece for me um was was adopting a new identity um because when we're stuck in addiction or alcoholism or just any kind of those negative behavior patterns that repeat over and over and over, when we remove that, we we're left with a void.

Um you know, the a void of time, effort, energy, you know, money sometimes and we have to fill that with something and for me, like that was Okay, so, when I first got like put any kind of actual substantial clean time together, that that was in like 12-step meetings and like that it it did help me.

It helped me to get community. It helped me to kind of get my feet from you know, back under me and get through a very hard time in in my life. But where where I feel like it's it's not enough and that's kind of where the the steps come in at is to help for the personal growth.

It's it's It's you have to adapt adopt rather um basically a new identity. And that that could be, you know, whatever you want it to be. It could be, you know, maybe you get really into exercising or maybe you um you know, you like dogs so you you start a dog walking business or you know, it's just I I feel like when we when we do things that feed our soul and um leave us fulfilled and fill us with passion that helps us to maintain consistency.

And that's

But but but what you just said though, somebody I'm just thinking playing the devil's advocate here is like wait, but heroin does that for me. What you just said, it gives me passion for that time being. So I want you to really like uh give the listener like that real understanding of how if that shifted for you because I'm sure like your old self probably would have been like especially think of you as a teenager like what no, yeah, that gives me passion.

This gives me I feel like I'm on top of the world. So what's the difference for

Yeah, but the thing is is whenever you look for something outside of yourself for for fulfillment, it's temporary.

Ah.

You you have to find that fulfillment and that drive within yourself. So if you're relying on any kind of substance or anything external for you to feel okay inside, it's temporary because if you remove it, you're no longer okay.

I love that. That's that that I just want to make that crystal clear.

For sure. So but but how So let's talk about your um you what you created. Like when did it first start in you? Like what made you do this? Like how did you write something because think about like I I think some people might think like what if you're incarcerated or something, you must not have a brain.

You know what I'm saying? Like or like you're stupid. I'm sorry. Like I've heard this before just because of what I worked in alternative high schools. You had adults outside of situations. And I'm sitting there going, "No, actually like some of the gang gang member drug dealers, they were the smartest businessmen I ever met.

I promise you." They were smarter than me like in that and they were 14 15 years old. They just knew It just that energy went into a place where they were just getting in and out of trouble, you know? So we're going to talk two different things.

The system that you saw because you saw and you're you're trying to change that system as well of people seeing that system, the stigma and and just like what you learn and what could change. I don't know if you want to go to that first and then we could talk about or is it all together your your um your book and everything.

So I don't know.

Just don't give me too many questions at once cuz I tend to I tend to forget the the multiple questions.

I know. I'm so sorry I do but that's But that's how my brain works. Oh, my poor audience. They're all They're like, "Why did you know?" And it's just how I am too. Maybe it was all the drugs I took when I

Okay, let's let's go with let's go with your book first because I think this is the most important aspect of what came out to give people hope. And then we'll if we have time for the system, we'll talk about the system. But let's go right now your book.

Your like what is it? What is it about? How did it you know, how cuz it must have been a little seed inside of you that all of sudden started it and then you just probably what started journaling or something and then what happened?

So there were few seeds that were planted along the way. Um as as I said, I went through multiple different treatments and through each treatment you'd usually have like an intake where you just kind of give your whole rundown of your life and your using history and just all of that.

And so a couple of times during intakes I'd have counselors tell me that I should write a book and one said like, "I'll I'll actually help write it with you." And like I didn't take her up on it at that that point I was still sick, but so I I'd say that was kind of the first seed that was planted and then throughout my incarceration music gave me hope a lot.

So I wrote a lot of music and I you know kind of perform for people in in the pods and and what I'd get out and I I did some shows and I had a song on the radio and stuff.

I didn't know that. You didn't tell me that. There was no way you were going to

tell me that. Oh

No, I didn't tell you that.

Okay. Oh now I'm all See now my brain's going to go music. What What did you play? Like what kind of music? What was the genre?

I rapped. I was a rapper.

For real?

Yeah.

Oh my Yeah. And I know it's probably because of that spoken word it's very I love rap too. So like yeah. Okay, well all right, let's go back.

Yeah, so I mean I I'd already you know kind of had [snorts] ample experience writing and it it kind of started in high school. I had a couple of poems that I wrote that I got offers to be put into poetry books.

I don't I don't recall if I ever followed up with them or not, but so writing is always kind of been a skill set of mine and so then I guess another seed that was planted later on my mom and I had talked about co-writing a book where we'd give the same version of events, but one one with her perspective, the other with mine and you'd like flip it over and it would be two different covers

essentially, but um then I I overdosed and found myself doing 6 to 8 months, so I know I had the time to do, so I just decided to write it and I just wanted to tell my story as as honestly as I could and it it really kind of helped me process a lot of things that I hadn't processed up up until that point.

Um then I I actually I actually released three books in December. So there's there's the memoir, there is a reflections companion book, and then there's a workbook. And originally the reflections companion book was going to be part of the memoir, but it just would have been too big.

So it just spun off onto its own thing. And then when my fiance when I got out, I got together with my fiance and we were together for five and a half years. And she was also in recovery but had mental health issues and she took her life last July.

And during that period, I feel like that's kind of what inspired the the workbook and the curriculum that I built. I thought about you know, it just made me reflect on you know, all of the treatments that I'd been through and what really made a difference for me and what kind of felt like fluff.

Um because in some of them like I I really a lot of the the treatments I went through, it taught me information that just didn't move the needle for me. You know, like I didn't need to know how drugs or alcohol affected my brain or my kidneys or my liver.

I know they're bad for me. That's not going to help keep me clean. So So I built a a curriculum kind of focused on that identity piece. It It essentially allows the participant to identify the behavior that they want to change, what they want to change it to, and then helps create a bridge to create that change.

Then also kind of helps teach them who they're becoming so they have an idea on why maintaining that change is worthwhile.

Mhm. Do you use any kind of modalities that you learned? And when I mean by modal You know what I mean. Any evidence-based stuff that you learned?

So there's definitely evidence-based practices that are kind of built into it. Um I mean, there's motivational interviewing, there's um narrative therapy, there's reflective therapy. So, there's there's few different modalities built in throughout, but it's it's definitely kind of a unique curriculum. It it takes my my book and it essentially uses it as a mirror.

And uh so, the workbook kind of corresponds with the the memoir and then the reflections book afterwards. And they just work through questions and basically apply whatever they're reading about to their own lives. And so, then [snorts] when you move to the reflections phase, then it kind of goes into more insight and values.

Then it um it ends with a capstone speech where they just kind of put a bunch of different components together and really create that road map for their future.

Have you used your curriculum anywhere? I mean, how do you know it works?

I don't yet. Um I I it wasn't available until the books came out in December, but um I feel like I have a pretty pretty good understanding of what was effective for me and what wasn't. And I even incorporated some things that I never went through.

I just feel like they're going to be impactful. Like um like for example, um in the capstone speech section, I have uh participants write a eulogy to themselves from a perspective of a loved one and what they'd hope to hear at their funeral.

That's a good one.

Yeah, to kind of get people to think more about how they want to be remembered and you know, what legacy do you want to leave? So.

Yeah. Yeah, so with those are the things I want to understand more what moved the needle for you. So, can you can you just share a little more about that? Because I think that's going to be helpful for our listener because if they haven't ever thought of that before, maybe they will now.

Like that right there, what you just said with the eulogy. My psychology teacher made us do that in our senior year of high school. I thought it was the most morbid thing. I mean, we're I was 17, but do you see what I mean?

And I it did and I was a peer counselor in high school. So, I felt like I lived sort of like a double life. But, I know now what it was happening. It's just like I needed to chill out so I can function in school and at home.

So, but that that eulogy thing, you know, it is understanding like what legacy do you want to leave to others? And it doesn't have to be like I think because we live in America, which I love our country, I do, but we have this thinking of legacy means money or legacy right?

Legacy means like like material items. How How did you shift that for you?

Well, I'm I don't know. I mean, psychedelics honestly, I mean, that that played a a large role in and my perspective on a lot. Um So, shortly before and this is kind of one of the last chapters in the book, shortly before my my final arrest, um I'd taken some mushrooms at with my sister and I'm I'm a big proponent of of psychedelic assisted therapy.

I mean, I don't believe that a drug is a drug and I just know the impact that it's had on on me personally and

And there's research I want my audience to understand though because I don't I don't think you're talking about like There's recreational like I've seen that too. I mean, I'm just I'm being honest too. I mean, I know psychedelics as well because back in high school those were the things that I would take, but that was recreational and that could be dangerous.

To me, responsible like I know John Hopkins has a psychedelic department and I'm trying to get someone there to come and talk about the ketamine therapy. I get it. I get it when it's a responsible psilocybin. Um and so, I just I don't want someone to think like and if they do think that, that's actually their problem.

This is your story, but I just want to have a better understanding of how it helps cuz it's think of it again. The teen years like, oh, psychedelics. Well, I just got permission. No, this is a story between two human beings that have done research and understand now the responsibility because people could get addicted to psychedelics as well.

I don't know if they can or not. Um but with that like I will 100% say that um your intent and your setting and all of that matters, you know, because you you can take it recre- recreationally and have a terrible time, you know, but um you can also take it intentionally to kind of learn about yourself and the world and it can kind of expand your your perspective.

So,

So, you had an ego death, I take it.

I did.

And um so, like that last time um you know, I I got to thinking about money kind of heavily and how um how it can be a tool that can open doors and let us kind of do whatever our our purpose is, but so often it becomes the purpose, you know, and and we lose sight on whatever that original direction was in the pursuit of money that that becomes the new purpose and that's it's very kind of easy to do and especially if you're um caught up in kind of like just the survival of life.

I mean, cuz we all need money to pay our bills and to eat and to have a roof over our heads and just all of that. So, it just I feel like it it kind of set me right mentally, but I was still sick physically and so then I had that overdose.

I ended up in jail, wrote the book, and I feel like that was kind of one of those those that were planted.

I I want to understand a little more because I mean for me my audience might be like, "Wait, you overdosed? Did you go to jail because you overdosed?" Or I don't know if you want to tell exactly why you

I was I was I was still addicted to heroin at the time when when I took the the psychedelics and it wasn't my first experience with them, but just like that particular experience. And so, you know, mentally I felt like I was in a better place, but physically I was still I was still sick.

I was still hooked and you know, it kind of took me overdosing and going to jail to and having that time to get my body back right to to kind of put myself back together a little bit.

Yeah. So, how do you does your brain or body I mean, how did you you shift from that because I know with some people that I've known personally or worked with when it comes to that kind of drug because there are heavy drugs out there, you know, that to me like your brain does some things that you could I've seen it now with marijuana like young teenage boys that are really hooked on this strong marijuana.

I mean, the medical marijuana stuff that's THC 94 and then they're up all night playing video games and and then they go into psychosis and then now they're um in schizophrenia. So, I just want people to understand like yeah, heroin though that I know when I had a friend who over or two friends that overdosed on heroin.

Um like it it it does something in your system where you you spoke about in the beginning where like that's all you want. It's just 24/7 of like, you know, until So, when you went and you started understanding more and more because it's not like you said the first time you didn't understand that you were going through withdrawals.

But as you kept doing it and going, it's like, you know, your brain didn't learn the lesson yet, right?

Yep. Yep.

So, it finally did. What was the of it finally learning the lesson to now, right now, does your body still want it?

No. No. I mean, now I don't even like, honestly, I don't even identify as an addict anymore. I feel like I've I've I pretty much like it looks so different and I could never picture me going back to that that lifestyle again. I mean, it was at the time it was my my primary coping skill, you know, it's how I'd cope with anything.

Feeling good, feeling bad, feeling indifferent, feeling nothing, feeling bored. It I hadn't I didn't know how to feel and how to feel without anything, you know, I I always needed something to kind of mask however I was feeling. And so, now I I don't have that concern of going back to it.

I mean, I was able to deal with, you know, the death of the person I loved most, you know, and and not go back to that. So, if that didn't break me, nothing will.

Wow. So, when it comes to feelings and emotions, right? And that's the thing what I've seen, too, is that we don't want to feel these bad things, anger, sadness, hurt, pain. I mean, because many of the stories, and I think that's where the narrative therapy probably really to get you to understand and be heard and be in community and accountability.

I I want to know about how your curriculum, especially, because what what do you what do you plan on doing with this curriculum? What like, what is it for? What do you want to do with it?

So, I mean, what I'd like to do is I'd like to find like treatment centers and re-entry organizations that are willing to to implement it and to gather data to find out if you know if it's more effective than other programs and um you know I just feel like I feel like um stories can be a good they can provide good insight into our own lives and like I said the the curriculum that I built it's

not like anything that I really had been through but I feel like so with with like behavior based for example like CBT and stuff like that you know it'll teach you good tools on how to say no and how to stop but not who you're becoming after you stop and why things stopped is worth it so that's kind of the the gap that I feel like my curriculum can fill and it can be worked in conjunction

with behavior based as a stand alone kind of you know it's fairly malleable but yeah I mean that's that's essentially where I'm at is just trying to find partners to help implement it.

So with the is it on available like say someone's listening right now because I've had some clients or other people that I've spoken with and they're not ready to go to treatment center they're not they're they they have to work because you said something earlier it's like some of us are well I'm not an act addict anymore either but it's like some people are high functioning.

Yeah.

Okay so they're able to have that little flask in their drawer and be drunk the you know like the alcoholism per se or go and shoot up in a bathroom and then come back in their suit and tie and they're ready to work and they actually do great work as a lawyer or something okay I'm just you know I want to understand though if somebody's listening can they maybe work with you in that way where they take the workbook and you got to be careful too, because man, we're we're in a sue-happy freaking society.

So, this is for informational use only. You need to go see somebody because Andrew is not a clinical any therapist, but and I am, but I am not telling you what to do. I just got to make sure people understand clearly because we live in this sue-happy world.

And um but at the same time, it's like your workbook, is it available for someone that might be curious and maybe they have been in and out of of different centers and nothing has worked or they just see the fluff because it sounds like, you know, you learned you probably went treatment center to treatment center and and kept and stored in, okay, this actually works for me, this didn't.

I see this pattern at every treatment center that does not work at all and this is failing. This is actually helpful. Like because we have to understand every human being has different personalities. So, what worked for you might not work for the other human.

Yep. Yeah, and I feel like the the the more kind of modalities, as long as they're effective for some people, you know, that's that's not a bad thing. But yeah, and I I hear you on the the sue-happy. I mean, in the workbook, I say right in there, this is not clinical therapy.

So, um and and your yeah, the the workbook is available all all of the books are available. So, if someone wanted to, you know, buy the workbook and work through it on their own, they 100% could. I just I just believe in the power of group therapy also and so that's why it's kind of my preferred um you know, uh modality, I guess, but

Why? Why do you think group is would be the better um situation?

I believe uh and a little bit more specific closed cohort groups. Um so, you know, groups that do not change from beginning to end. Um because I believe that allows to build continuity. It allows to get outside perspective. So, when we are kind of stuck in those um you know, thinking distortions, um there are other people to call us out on it.

Because if we're just kind of doing the work by ourself, then we're we're not The only feedback we're getting is from us then. So,

Right. And that could have a lot of cognitive distortions or like not understanding patterns or you not you know, this is why I think working with a group is beautiful because we're meant to be in tribes. I mean, historically, I mean, you think of scientifically and historically, we're all meant to be in community.

Yep.

And that lone wolf mentality is what causes a lot of depression and anxiety where somebody will take their life. And and understanding you're not alone. I think that's the beauty This is why you're on here because I need people to understand cuz I do have a lot of very professional human beings with not saying that you're not professional, but you see what I'm saying?

Like for your story to be heard and and now you're here going, "Okay, like I've done the work. I want to help. I have this story. I put time and effort into this curriculum." I don't know, whoever is listening, like if if you are part of a treatment center and contact you want to contact Andrew, that's wonderful.

I'll leave all his information in the show notes. Because that that is the thing about curriculum, too. Like working in school systems, you have like I had to look at curriculum. Someone asked me to help them with some curriculum that they were from a Christian mentality into inner-city schools and I I had to call them out on a lot of stuff.

I'm like, "You are not understanding." So, this is where we're going to now talk about the system.

Cuz I saw that. I was reading I was helping they I you know, I got paid to help look through the curriculum to see like what they were because people have so much passion into their work that they're sometimes are blind you know, there's a blind spot and that's the beauty of accountability is to help that.

Not to just, you know, hurt somebody, but to make them better. It's iron sharpening iron. I'm a woman of faith. So, iron sharpening iron, right? It's accountability is like, "Hey, did you think about this? Is this culturally acceptable?" Like, you know, stuff like that.

So, the system that you experienced because I know South Florida uh prison or Florida prison would be different than Wisconsin, but there's something that I hear sometimes from different people like it's sort of like, "Tell me what your experience was and what you think needs to be changed."

Oh, that's that's a Pandora's Box. Um

All right, in 5 minutes.

So, I mean, I kind of the the first the biggest thing that I feel like would make a difference nationally um with um with our justice system is I'm actually a part of this coalition and we're meeting with Senator Rand Rand Paul for a briefing on May 21st and it is to abolish the Controlled Substances Act.

Um I am I've already launched I've released like 12 parts of a 36-part blog series on my website making the case to legalize and regulate drugs and to shift the enforce the the funding from enforcement into prevention and treatment and why it's just better outcomes.

It's it will help more people. It's more fiscally um effective. It will reduce violence. I mean, it's it's pretty um I'd say that's that's the biggest thing is we need to stop punishing drug users and because the it's a public health issue. It is not a criminality issue or a morality issue.

It's people who need to heal and to learn how to cope. And by throwing them into a cell is just adding further trauma and putting them further behind and making them more likely to use and more likely to overdose upon release. The there have been ample studies that show that the first two weeks after it's it's either first two weeks or 90 days.

I don't recall at this point, but um the the overdose window is much much higher immediately after release than versus the general population. And I mean it it makes sense. And I mean I've I've lost two friends in the last two weeks and from from overdoses.

And these were friends from my past. I don't really have communication with them, but they were still friends nonetheless, you know. I've I've lost a lot of people and the I feel like our policy should keep people alive long enough to get help.

Right. Well, to me I I thought cuz like I said I worked with alternative high schools and a lot were coming in and out of juvenile, you know, they're called delinquents and stuff like that. And to me I thought when you send them to a place it was supposed to be rehabilitation.

Yep.

Right, but it was a pipeline.

Yeah.

It's a pipeline that make a lot of these private prisons money. I'm not going to go there because this is a I'm not going to become political. I'm a therapist. I have to stay a Switzerland. I'm here about healing.

But but you're what else you know, was there anything in your prison time that you said we need more of this and or you see what I mean? Was there anything at all?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean programming. I mean my my second time and that was the the longer sentence. That was the one that was like 21 and 1/2 months. And like I was found to have a vocational need. I hadn't really had any kind of like meaningful work up until that point.

I had an AODA need and a criminal thinking need.

What's that? Explain those two things.

AODA alcohol or drug other drug assessment. So if if you if you're there on like a drug or an alcohol case, you'll probably be deemed to have an AODA need. And and criminal thinking. So those were three needs that I was found to have.

And I had I don't know, maybe 11 months left. Something a lot around that that range by the time I actually got there because I sat in county for a while fighting a fighting a case before I ended up signing my revocation papers and going back to prison.

And I won't get into all those details. It's kind of irrelevant. But but either the the point is is that I had like a year left and they deemed me to not have enough time to do the programming. But they also wouldn't give me minimum security custody so I could go to a work release and save money for my release.

And so you know, I basically just had to sit there and do nothing. And you know, when you go to prison and you get out, you're left in a lot worse circumstance typically than we went in with, you know, unless you have family, you got to figure out a roof, you got to figure out transportation, food, clothing.

I mean, a lot of people lose everything while they're in. So I feel like we need to make programming very available in the prison system. And I also feel like especially for longer sentences, there needs to be kind of like a step down process.

So you know, where you kind of earn a little bit more of your freedom step-by-step, but where eventually you make it to a work release for like a year, year and a half, let you save some money, then go to a halfway house for the end of your sentence, and kind of just ease people back into society instead of no no decisions are under your control to all decisions are under your control.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know that's how it was like that especially as adults because you're talking about the adult system because like juvenile you know, cuz there's there's kids out there that started second third grade and they're in and out and out and out and then they're you know, go straight into prison after that and that's that's what broke my heart back in the day when I worked in the in the alternative high school and not all kids that go to alternative high schools are like that either.

I got to make that crystal clear. But so you're okay, programming and and stuff and of course people are going to be like, well, that's taxes and all that. I mean, it seems like the educational system and the prison system needs a revamp totally because prevention would be in the educational system in these public schools.

So we would prevent people going into the you know, into the prisons. It's like, but you know, if if someone's listening right now, say uh someone that had the ability to make changes like Rand Paul. Like that's pretty cool that you're going to go to this.

Like what would be the most benefit like what would you want to say to him if you were able to sit there and say, okay, this is the what we really need and how I you see it because you have the personal experience and now here you are with this this book, the workbook, the ability to like how would you change it?

What do you want to change and what would you want to say to any politician out there?

Well, first I mean, we need to figure out what our carceral system is for. Is it for punishment or is it for rehabilitation? Is it to change people's behaviors or to punish them for the previous behaviors? That's the That's the very first decision that we have to make.

Because if it's for punishment, then there's not much that needs to change, really. If it's to to for corrective action, then we need to treat it as such. And you know, there are a lot of other countries that are better examples than we are.

I mean

And worse, though. Because I know some countries like, "Oh, you stole? Here, chop off your hand." You raped someone? There goes your pee-pee. So

Yeah. No, no, for sure. And I mean, that's that's like I feel like barbarism essentially, you know, barbarians. Um, but I I mean, I hear you. But those aren't the countries we want to take our cues from.

Yeah, I wonder if there's a happy medium between that Well, you know, I guess because of what I do as a for a living in this in the things that I hear about women and children a lot. So that I hear I sorry, I digress.

But But it's it's true. It's like, you know, rehabilitate It's so much work to just change and move these the needle into something more positive for all humans in society because we do have to protect those that are doing things legally, right? But I think what I'm hearing from you is that those with addiction issues and and those situations, there should be a different kind of programming when you find out that's the situation and then we shift it in that manner.

Is that what I'm hearing?

So So how I how I envision it is um drugs and alcohol being uh essentially legal. And whenever someone goes to purchase them, treatment has to be offered, especially for um harder substances every time a purchase is made. Um, you know, are you ready for treatment?

It's available now. And we have to have that treatment available now. Because the the window for addicts that when they're willing to actually get help and go to treatment, you got to capitalize on that window. I mean, it can last an hour, a day, you know, a minute sometimes.

And if help isn't available, you might miss that opportunity. Um and then shifting that because it's not like you just let crime go on. It would just make um using and possession no longer a crime. So, um if someone's still driving under the influence, yes, you go to jail for that.

If you commit a crime while using or under the influence or trying to get drugs, yes, you go to jail for that. Um but it's shifting the emphasis from punishing addiction and possession itself to, you know, harm that actually harms other people. And then making sure that those that are afflicted know, like without a shadow of a doubt, that there is help is help is available and it's available now depending regardless of their circumstances.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's such a gray area. It is because I I've known humans from both sides. Like, you know, someone that their mom was killed by a drunk driver, right? And and so you have to have consequences.

Yep.

And then at the same time, that drunk It's just so many different layers of this. So, there is no real like black and white thinking of this at all. It's So, you know, I think I could probably talk to you more about all the different things that you saw and experienced.

But since time is um closing on us right now because I got to go and see a client. Um I want to know, what would you say first to someone that is really struggling right now in their addiction. What would you like to say to them?

Change is possible. You You just have to believe it. You You have to have hope. That That's like the prerequisite to change in my opinion. If you don't have hope that your circumstance can improve, you're not going to put the effort forth to to change the circumstance.

So, I've seen the the lowest of the lows and I've completely changed my life and you can, too.

Mhm, I love that. And what would you like to say to someone who doesn't understand like those that are like you you have a second chance. Like You know what I mean? Like here you are. This is where I think I'm I'm impressed.

Is that you made choices, right? And you had consequences for those choices, but now you're making different choices and you're choosing to now take what has been put forth and now wanting to help others with it, right? But there's so many people out there that that either give up on that loved one or don't know where to turn or where to go.

What would you say to them?

Um I mean, we all we need all need to find support and whether you're the one going through it or you have a loved one going through it. I mean, there is support that's available. I mean, um for loved ones, I mean, you have like Al-Anon and and things like that.

So, it's just you don't have to go through your struggles alone. And that doesn't have to That's not even substance-centric. I mean, that's just people-centric. I mean, you you kind of touched on it earlier that we're all interconnected. None of us um None of us are completely independent.

Even the hermits out there in the in the woods, you know, they can't do surgery on themselves, they can't, you know, fill a cavity on themselves. You know, we we all need people. So, there's no shame in that and just seek support when it's needed.

Okay. Is there any kind of books off hand or any kind of podcast or anything that you feel that would be a great start for someone to start reading besides your workbook and your book and hopefully I can will tell me where we can find it.

Yeah, it's available wherever books are sold. The the main title is a Vision of Hope, a Story of Redemption and Purpose. And like I said, there's a Reflections companion book and a workbook. So, there's three total. But, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, website, anywhere.

Okay. Um and so, was there anything else that helped you through your recovery and your in your journey?

Well, I mean, like I said, the first was just having a belief that I could have a different life for myself. That was kind of the offspring of of change. Um So, I I'd say just find find some kind of hope. You know, find some kind of belief that you know, change is the only constant in life.

That is the the only thing that's pretty much guaranteed. Circumstances will change, the people in our lives will change, everything will change. Um so, if we can kind of accept that and just kind of ride life as it as it occurs, I feel like we'll have a much better experience.

Mhm. Yeah, change is the only constant. Constant. That's a Yeah, you're right about that. I mean, we're meant to evolve, right? We're born and then we're eventually going to die and it's about what we do in between those two years or two times or two days or two seconds of like the birth to to death and and it I'm not trying to be morbid, but understanding that dash.

I don't know if you've ever heard like that dash in between like when you see a tombstone or something like that understanding that every human has a purpose and we have the free will to make choices even if you're incarcerated like someone I don't know if you're allowed to listen to podcast in jail or not were you able to listen to stuff or watch TV?

Um when I was in they were just kind of rolling out the the tablets so I know that that they have them now so I wouldn't be surprised if they can but when I was in there were no podcast.

Okay so my thinking is that if you're listening to and you are incarcerated somewhere and you're listening to Andrew's story and you're listening to my voice to understand that everything that's happened it's not happening to you it's happening for you.

It's happening for you and just find a healthy community and understand that you have the ability to regulate to shift there's neuroplasticity we didn't even touch all that stuff that like you know you probably have learned and that I know because I'm a therapist but there's help out there so do not give up on yourself understand that you have a purpose and there's forgiveness there's forgiveness.

So Andrew anything any last words before we say goodbye?

No my dog starting to cry away here

ending at the right time.

All right man well it was a pleasure having this conversation thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me Diana it was great speaking with you.

Yeah and uh listener please do not forget to trust in the Lord guard your heart and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified mental health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The views expressed on this podcast are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of any professional organizations with which I am affiliated.

Call your doctor, 911, or 988 immediately if you have a medical emergency. The Holistic Counselor podcast does not recommend or endorse any specific tests, physicians, products, procedures, opinions, or other information that may be mentioned on the podcast. Reliance on any information provided by The Holistic Counselor podcast,

guests appearing on the podcast at the invitation of The Holistic Counselor podcast, or other listeners to the podcast is solely at your own risk. Confidentiality notice. If you engage with The Holistic Counselor podcast by commenting or posting and are a client, please be aware that you may be revealing information that could compromise your confidentiality.

Please remember that disclosing your identity or personal details can be linked to your clinical material. As a therapist, I am bound by confidentiality and will not respond to any disclosures of this type on this podcast. I am committed to upholding the ethics and confidentiality of the therapeutic relationship, which extends to all forms of communication in accordance with the laws and professional guidelines that govern mental health professionals.

I want you to know that your privacy is of utmost importance and you are responsible for protecting it when interacting on this platform or any other public forum. Thank you.