Healing Trauma at the Root: EMDR, Addiction, and Shame

Back in February of 2020, I attended the NSU MSD Strong event at Nova Southeastern University. It was 2 years after the tragic school shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on February 14th, 2018. A day etched into the heart of South Florida and beyond.

I remember hearing one of the teachers who was on campus that day speak about her healing journey. She shared how EMDR helped her find relief and begin to move forward. And it was the first time I truly heard what EMDR could do. I was struck.

And then, I heard today's guest, Brian Gong, speak as a community agent about EMDR and something in me shifted. Even though I've been in the field since 2004, took a break after my son's accident in 2012, and came back in 2018, that day gave me a new lens on trauma healing.

Fast forward to a Palm Beach Mental Health Counselor event a month or so ago, and I spot Brian. The moment I realized it was him, I knew I had to ask him to be on the show. And today, we get to share this powerful conversation with you.

My name is Diana, and this is The Holistic Counselor Podcast, where we explore the intersection of mental health, faith, and whole person healing. Whether you're a clinician, a survivor, or someone searching for hope, you're in the right place. This show is about informing, educating, and encouraging you with practical tools and heart-centered stories that remind you healing is possible even if you don't have access to therapy right now.

Brian Gong is the co-owner of Mangrove Therapy Group in Delray Beach, Florida, a private practice that specializes in trauma and addiction recovery by addressing the underlying emotional and psychological roots of suffering. He's a certified EMDR therapist and EMDRIA approved consultant and a basic training facilitator.

He's also provides trauma-informed clinical supervision and mentorship and has presented widely on trauma, addiction, and family recovery. In 2018, Brian founded the Southeast Florida Trauma Recovery Network offering pro bono EMDR therapy to survivors of the Parkland shooting. Today, he serves on the board of directors for Trauma Recovery EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Programs, known as HAP in the EMDR community, which helps bring trauma training and treatment to underserved areas worldwide.

This episode is full of wisdom, humility, and encouragement, I hope. If you've ever felt stuck in your pain, overwhelmed by shame, or unsure how to help a loved one battling addiction, this one's for you. Brian, welcome to the show. Thanks, Diana. Happy to be here.

Yeah. Yeah, so let's just talk a little bit about since I brought up how I first heard you cuz I think it was like at the lunch Listen, my memory, I can't believe I it's that good, but it's because what happened that day at NSU really struck a chord.

And I remember like we had the panel, we had uh uh the suicide prevention guy. And all of a sudden you got up, I think it was after lunch, and you started talking about the pro bono work and you just started talking about these things, you know, how did it shape your mission in trauma recovery work like why you started this nonprofit?

Yeah, um that's a great question. I To be honest, I totally forgot about that event until you brought it up a month ago and it was great seeing you again and um it feels surprising anytime someone can remember me from years before um but that that was a crazy year.

I mean, that our entire community was um crushed by the tragedy of what happened and I think a lot of therapists were just eager to do some part in the recovery process and um and I'm an EMDR nerd.

EMDR is an evidence-based therapy that's super effective at resolving traumatic memories and um and and so for a traumatic situation like the shooting at um at the high school uh I knew that EMDR would be a a great mechanism for helping to get the community back um to baseline and uh and so this organization that I'm affiliated with, they maintain these networks of trauma recovery networks, all right, these TRNs of um people who live in the

area that agree to provide pro bono EMDR therapy to to those who've been impacted by community disasters because EMDR is uh fast, it's effective and so um if I remember correctly, I think I was going to try to recruit people to just bring awareness that we're around, ready to help.

Yeah, I think that was it. Like because I think it was it was like here, look look at what I did. I'm a nerd as well, but not an EMDR nerd. I'm learning to be an EMDR. But look, I printed out the actual flyer that you were part of and and that was it.

It was around 12:00 where we had the alumni community and everything. We got every agency and it was you part of your agency. You spoke up and you had like 10-15 minutes to talk about what you were doing. And I was like, "Wow."

Like first that teacher that was part of the panel talked about EMDR and how that actually helped her while other people were, you know, that when you go through a tra- Let's go Let's just go right in there. When you go to through a tragedy like a school shooting, a war.

I mean, I've done EMDR for childhood PTSD. Um let's explain to the audience, Brian, because to me I never heard of it until that time frame. Well, I'm just saying ever heard of it until they need it. And then therapist is like, "Hey, I think this could really help you."

And then people are like, "EMR?" No. Yeah. R and and so uh maybe they should have had a different name when they first came up with it, but it is what it is, right? So uh yeah, stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

And it's based on the idea that current issues are the result of insufficiently processed maladaptively stored memories from the past, right? So we we, you know, we we go through life, we experience adversity, and for the most part we talk about it, we think about it, we dream about it.

And then no big deal, it's in the past. It's uh it's just a part of our story. But some experiences are beyond our ability to process at the time. And so whatever doesn't get processed essentially kind of gets stuck. And then um this leads to a whole bunch of potential psychological problems, right?

Because this stuck material can easily be triggered um and can show up intrusively in a person's life. And so, you know, obviously that So the memory of a shooting lingers with people because it's so powerful that a person's not able to process at the time.

And and then it it it lingers in the form of, you know, flashbacks, nightmares, you know, really terrible feelings and body sensations. And so, with EMDR, um for that at an event like that, you know, we go and we process the memory of of the shooting and, you know, and all the different pieces of it.

And as a result, the related symptoms of that unresolved memory, um go away. And uh it's really amazing. So, how though? Let's go there, because if you're the uh EMDR nerd, then you can actually answer these scientific questions of like, how? Like, how Is it hypnosis?

Is it like I know, like for me, I had the things in my hand. Maybe you could explain, cuz I want to teach whoever it is learn trying to learn this without using uh therapies, like I call it. Like, cuz we have a language, Brian.

Like, you could say TRN and I'll understand it or whatever, DSM, all that stuff. But when we're talking now between you and me, let's pretend like the person just arrived to Earth and we're teaching them completely, like E M D R, right? So, what are the things called that are in your hands?

Because I used the ones in my hand and the light at the same time. Yeah, so let me start let me start here. So, so uh like many things, EMDR was stumbled across um by happenstance, right? So, there was a psychologist in California named Francine Shapiro, and uh she had been diagnosed with cancer.

And um you know, it's obviously a very distressing experience. And the story goes that she's in a park, and um you know, she's kind of looking around her. Her eyes are kind of moving back and forth, um on their own. All of a sudden, she realized that you know, the experience um of finding out about the cancer didn't feel as distressing anymore.

Instead of dread for the future, there was a sense of optimism. So, she's like, "Okay, what what what happened there?" And she And so, from that, she did her very first two studies that she published on EMDR. She took uh Vietnam War veterans and she took um sexual assault survivors and she said think about the bad memories and then follow my fingers with your eyes.

And she would do these sets of eye movements and she would ask for feedback in between. What are you noticing now? And people would report these crazy phenomenon happening right where they huh starting to feel a little better. Huh. You know what? That wasn't my fault.

That was just a kid. And there was sort of this metabolizing of these memories that were really powerful still decades later and the memories became more neutral. The negative associations related to the experiences um became more adaptive. Um these experiences that were sort of stuck in trauma time, right?

Uh from almost as if from the eyes as if they're actually happening. Um Yeah. And and and people are able to see them as old um you know, with more of a mature understanding and uh and and so from that point uh EMDR, you know, was developed over the course of the next couple of decades into into what it is today.

Why does it work? I wish I could tell you that, you know, we don't know. We don't we don't know. We don't know why talk therapy works. We don't know what's happening in the brain that helps us feel better when we talk about things.

I hope one day we can understand more about what happens on a cellular level, but um all we know is that when we take distressing memories and we add bilateral stimulation, eye movements, um back and forth tapping, little alternating vibration paddles, even audio tunes tones, Mhm. somehow it helps the mind to process experiences that were once stuck and that seem to be unmovable by just kind of talking about them verbally.

So it's pretty fascinating. It's It's effective and it's backed by a ton of research. How long has it been around? It's been around since the late 80s when when she stumbled across it and published those first two studies. Yeah.

So So here's what I think because I since I've experienced it it was I really feel you know because you have the left brain, the emotional brain, the and all that and and when something is stuck, first of all giving permission for it to come out of you.

So somatic movement of it, right? To me it was like a somatic thing. It's also the the aha moments. Like all of you know like like it jarred the logical with the emotional like the emo because a lot of clients, I'm sure you go through this too is where they come in with so much guilt and shame.

Mhm. Right? And of things that happened to them and they're keeping it a secret or they're keeping it inside and for us it's not like we're priests or anything, but when you get to let it out, right? And it's like confessing it or putting it out there in a safe space.

And then you're somatically moving it at the same time. And you're realizing things and and it just gives you a a Like I had the situation from with me since I was about I would say 5 years old. I had no idea that's why a certain thing kept making me do what I was doing.

And I'm I will share with you what it was. It was like every time I heard of ambulances, every time I I was realizing like I would get disassociated. Mhm. Or stuck. Yeah. The brain then I was doing yoga and then these flashbacks were happening.

I'm like, what is this? What is this? Because it's stored situations in our system. And that's why I started the EMDR. That's why I went into it and began going, "Oh my god, I'm in my late 40s. What is this? Like what?" Yeah.

But now I did EMDR, I can hear the ambulance and I have no You still remember the situation, but it's not the emotional part where now I'm frozen or I'm crying or I get snappy or Can you explain that a little? Yeah, that's so powerful.

I I appreciate sharing that. That's That's Yeah, that's amazing. Uh yeah, so like you know, we we we go through these hard experiences and at 5 years old um you know, most 5-year-olds don't have the cognitive capacity to understand things that have happened to them or the uh emotional maturity to process things in a healthy way.

Um so you you take an adverse experience, you combine it with a lack of outlet to be able to um uh express and process these powerful emotions. And it just gets stuck, right? And it's like all this stuff gets put in a box and uh and we put the lid on and we put it in the closet hoping to never think about it again.

But there's always stuff coming out of the box, right? There's always crap leaking out, getting triggered, getting um uh bumped on and um and then and then there's these symptoms that seem to relate to this old experience. And uh and kids take everything personal, right?

I mean um as an adult, if there was a kid um experiencing some traumatic situation, we would never say, "Oh, that kid's bad. That kid's, you know, shameful." Well, some people do, and that's the problem. But anyway, we won't go there. That is true.

That That is true. Sometimes the biggest traumatic component of a situation is the invalidation that family or caregivers give after a difficult event. So you're absolutely right. But you know, for the most part, you know, as an adult, we can understand with more nuance that it wasn't the kid's fault.

Um there's nothing they could do. And yet when we go through something, especially at a young age, we it it feels very personal, like we ought to have stopped it. I should have known better. Um there's just this negative sense of shame uh that comes about and uh and being able to process those original memories so that uh, um, that inappropriate shame and you know, negative energy can be dis- released is is an amazing opportunity.

So, I I encourage everyone to do that work. Yeah. So, let's talk about shame. It's sneaky, paralyzing, Mhm. and often masked by addiction, perfectionism, or silence. Yeah. So, what's one body-based or soul-based tool you use to help clients face their shame instead of being swallowed by it?

That's a great question. Um, and it's and it's it's interesting cuz the things that we do to cope with shame, like you just mentioned, often create more shame. Um, and then the cycle goes on. So, um, man, if I had to pick one thing, you know, I I uh, it makes me think of uh, Brené Brown.

I mean, um, she does has done a lot of research on shame and uh, she says shame thrives in secrecy. And so, it's really important for us to be able to talk about these things with a safe person who won't judge and um, who won't just give unsolicited advice, right?

Who will listen to with a to us with compassion and non- a non-judgmental perspective. Um, and it's very empowering, right? It and it it feels really good um, to be able to uh, verbalize that with someone else. And so, I guess I would encourage someone to talk about it.

You know, when uh, when I used to work in residential treatment, um, we used to give people this assignment, uh, if you knew blank about me, Mhm. would you still love me? And then I would ask them to make a list of all the things that would fit into the blank.

Mhm. And um, and and then share with the group, right? And it it would basically highlight all the things that we feel shameful about that we want to keep hidden, that we want to keep secret, that we don't want the world to know because of how we fear others will perceive us.

And um by identifying these and sharing them with with a safe environment, uh it ends up being like a really cathartic and healing experience. And then I would recommend if I'm allowed to have another option, Yes, please. to find an EMDR therapist to work through this stuff because you know, we go through life you know, what we're not born with these negative beliefs about ourselves or this shame, right?

We're born with a clean slate and and our experiences, positive and negative, shape how we see ourselves, right? And so, um if I grow up with a lot of nurturance, consistency, and positive experiences, I grow up believing that I'm pretty worthwhile, I'm good enough, right?

And uh and I have value as a person. But if I grow up in a critical system, uh that's overly harsh, um if I experience, you know, uh you know, traumatic situations, I might develop these negative beliefs of uh I'm bad, I'm not good enough, I don't matter.

And um and like we were talking about with EMDR, we can go back, identify where these negative beliefs and these feelings come from. Mhm. And process those just the same way we would process, you know, these other big T traumas like a shooting or something like that.

Process the memories of a critical parent, um teasing, bullying, um just feeling different, like I don't belong. Mhm. These um feelings of defectiveness and inadequacies carry through into adulthood to where people try to cope in all different ways that um uh you know, don't don't really actually heal the original wounds that were there, you know, when they when they were developed.

Yeah. Like I think I I chose a few uh choices. I love that. I want more. Like if you if there's more Brian, I honestly if there are more strategies because not everyone could afford quality therapy. You know what I'm saying? Like Mhm. you know, like or I love that you have where you do pro bono.

Is is this the group still do pro bono work? Uh we've kind of disorganized and colleague and I are putting in efforts now actually to revamp because unfortunately something bad like that is going to happen again in the community. Yeah. I I hope it doesn't but No. with the nature of climate change, natural disasters Just still Something bad is going to happen and we want to be ready to be able to respond but the system is broken.

I mean there's a lot of uh There's a lot of people who uh need help and um and can't afford it. There's a a lot of people who need help and don't believe that help is available.

Um We used to think that uh trauma PTSD was something you just had to kind of live with and you get used to and um I guess I would love your listeners to know that there are effective therapies to resolve their traumatic symptoms and so if they do have access I encourage people to to go seek help.

What what I usually say is that you're going to I hate to say it this way but you're going to pay either way. Mhm. Mhm. You see you could either pay now for either prevention or getting the tools you need and the the skill set so you can you know get through it cuz we have to go through things.

Like people want to ignore it or pretend it's not happening or blame everybody else.

All right and so it is understanding like if not it's going to build up cuz that's how I also see how what EMDR helped me process and work through was you know, it was a build up of the narratives, the stories of the village that raised us, you know, and then certain situations, traumatic events happen, big T, little T and what we mean by that, guys, it's like, you know, there's the war because people say, "Oh, me, I I I I didn't have any trauma.

I was never in a war and I was never raped." And I'm like, "No, it's understanding that there's wounds." Because the word trauma is wounds. Yeah, it's the word trauma nowadays is like so many other psychological words in Tik Tok are overused to a place where it then it gets numbed out or then everybody is having this situation, which honestly after 2020 I really think that everybody does have trauma, for real, you know?

Um but these wounds will store up and and that's where we need to realize like, "Okay, how do we be still to understand it so we can heal these wounds and make them effective scars instead of them being open all the time and now we're reacting in the wound constantly."

Research shows Research shows that trauma is cumulative, right? And um And I don't know, it's the universe's paradox. Things we avoid get worse, right? And um and yet I understand why you avoid, right? I mean, I understand why someone does Why would anyone want to think about something that causes them so much distress?

Right. Actually, it's one of the criteria to have a PTSD diagnosis. There needs to be some level of avoidance because it makes sense. People don't want to feel these yucky feelings. Um and uh yet there's no way around it.

Uh we And one day maybe there'll be some magic wand that will allow us to and then the traumatic symptoms are gone, but um I'm not sure if we'll ever get there because there is a going through something that um is so characteristic of healing and um overcoming challenges.

Uh But I Yeah, I get it. It's it's it's scary. Um But people people would rather wrestle an alligator than talk about their feelings in therapy. And um they'd rather jump out of a plane. And so when people choose not to do it, I I almost want to you know, it's like, "Don't you see the life you can have?"

And at the same time I got to respect people's personal choices cuz I understand. And And then later, when it all comes spilling out because uh they can no longer contain it. Their closet is so full of boxes that the that the boxes just flowing out.

Um Uh that's when oftentimes people will come into therapy and they say, "Help me. Everything's out now." And you're like, "Whoa. Okay. Let's figure this out." Um One box at a time. One box at a time. And And yeah, so if people have the opportunity to get ahead of that before it all spills out, it's such an amazing opportunity.

Right. Yeah. So, let's talk about addiction a little because that's something that you really work in, right? Because to me, how I see addiction, it is it's about those wounds that Like I don't ever picture a five, a six-year-old going, "When I grow up, I want to be an addict."

Or when I grow up, I want to be a you know, someone that's addicted to alcohol or cocaine. And then there's so much shame on that, too, because I do have clients well that I sometimes have to refer out because I am not, you know, they need to go to a uh outpatient or inpatient program.

And because they do need that help, but the shame about it, like, "Oh my goodness. No, I'm you know, I I have this under control." But the whole family is like going, "Uh you're a mess." So, let's talk about addiction a little and EMDR.

Like, how's that work? Yeah, but when you brought you mentioned a a vicious cycle, right? Because um you know, you a person develops an addiction um and uh and and then they feel ashamed about their behavior. Um right? Because it doesn't feel good lying and um cheating and doing all that stuff.

And uh and then what do you do with that shame? You got to use more of the addictive substance or behavior in order to counteract that. different ones. Stuck in this vicious cycle. And so we we we named our our practice actually mangrove therapy group um because of the mangrove tree, the which is known for its roots.

And so it's all about getting at the root of the issue. And so you know, addiction is a very complex process, genetics, um learn social learning. But recently a lot of research and attention has been focused on the relationship between adversity and addiction, right?

Um uh people like Gabor Maté have been talking about how unresolved trauma leads to addiction, right? It's and it's easy to see how someone who grows up with nightmares or flashbacks or an intense feeling of shame Mhm. um from something bad that happened to them will resort to numbing themselves out or medicating with something uh like a drug because it works so well at calming those feelings until until it doesn't, right?

And then if you think about it, everything we avoid gets worse. So this unresolved trauma um is festering inside and you just have to use more in order to calm that down and um and and often develop, you know, comes into a development of an addiction.

And so um uh recovery requires at some point to address whatever's underneath the surface that's sort of um uh fueling that process. And then we find uh we have to work, you know, as as an EMDR therapist, you know, a lot of times we'll work through you know, some of the some of the underlying trauma that led to the development of these compulsive behaviors.

Yeah. But also we have to work through the experiences in addiction of doing things they normally never would have done because they were sort of a slave to their substance. And so there's becomes a lots of layers to to someone who's at that point.

Yeah. I like how you put that, a slave to their substance, because that's what ends up happening. You become so it becomes an idol in your life due to you wanting not to feel those what we us humans I think think are bad feelings like you know the sadness the depression the anxiety and then we put these things in our system and it doesn't only have to be drugs.

I mean there are shopping addiction there's so many out there anything actually you know just that could be an addiction in itself when it becomes just this I don't know how to explain it but you know I mean addiction is is avoidance essentially it's a way to not have to feel these things and yet like you you mentioned we talked about feeling these things is what gets us through the situation and so we're we're we're we're

entering this sort of um uh maladaptive process where things just keep getting worse and worse and so some of the first stages of addiction treatment is it sounds so cliche but it's like getting in touch with your emotions right and it's going going to the emotion gym and I remember hearing someone talk about you know he's like yeah you know the good thing about getting sober is you get to feel your feelings and the bad thing

about getting sober is you get to feel your feelings and I'm like all right I know what the guy's talking about because um it for people who have been avoiding this for such a long time all emotions are powerful and developing a relationship with them building up a tolerance for them realizing they're not going to kill you that they're a part of life almost practicing this embodiment of whatever's happening inside is the key to being more

being in control of that and um and and not you know resort to these maladaptive strategies Yeah I mean this is why I named my company through the Valley Therapy cuz you got to go through the valley to get to your mountain top.

You got to go through it, not around it. Well, it's uh based out of Psalm 23:4, you know, even though I walk through the shadow of the val- wait, no. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.

You know, and because I am a faith-based practitioner and I'm trying to break stigma in churches and in my community of the of the BIPOC community because sometimes what happens is we carry a lot of shame in churches and a lot of shame and guilt shame and guilt in both churches and in the black and brown and minority community um be- due to the collectivism of these cultures and it's like and we don't want to talk

about it or we blame the devil, you know, we give Satan way too much power and sorry, like that to understand that God made it all in in my opinion, the biology, the psychology, and the theology that it's we're all these unique thumbprints at the same time we're all humans trying to live on this earth together.

And And so like you know as you are teaching and helping people grow because basically you're you're giving them a really great skill set. What is it that you use as well? Do you give your clients like deliverables or take home task or homework or something in between sessions or like what do you see is like the most powerful aspect of EMDR?

Yeah, so I mean, so personally I like homework, but I mean, I couldn't pay most people to do homework, unfortunately. So uh but you know, I obviously would have to pick and choose what our clients are willing to do. Um Yeah, so so you know working through trauma um is such an important part of the process, but but you know, just like you're not going to go to a surgeon and do surgery on that first day, there's a preparation that happens, right?

If we want to do things effectively and efficiently, we have to help our clients prepare for going there, so to speak, um by teaching them uh emotional regulation skills, addressing maybe any um safety issues, right? Because if you're going to go there, you know, it's going to bring up some stuff.

You can't start to clean out a room without kicking up some dust, and we have to be able to um manage the dust in an effective way. And so, a part of that preliminary process is helping clients manage strong emotional states. Now, some clients are ready to go right off the bat.

They already come in with this sense of um regulation and uh attunement that they can go there with you at pretty soon. And for others, it just takes a little while. And so, um And so, yeah. So, part of the process of of trauma therapy is is preparing.

It's determining what pace we can go. It's building a relationship, right? Because uh it takes a lot of trust, right? I'm I'm going to I'm going to say, "Hey, follow me. We're going to We're going to focus on, you know, this stuff that you've never wanted to even think about ever again."

Um uh you know, some of the stuff is so bad that you don't even remember it happening. That's how much your brain um wants to keep it out of your awareness. And and if And so, I need you to trust me that I got you.

Mhm. That um that I have the competence to be able to guide you through the work effectively. Um but that uh I'm also going to take the process really seriously, and um and it it feels like an honor, to be honest. It feels like an honor when someone trusts me with this material that they haven't want to talk about with anyone, and that they're willing to go there with me.

It's It's a Yeah, it's a It's a K- keeps me going. Yeah, it's I mean you have to build that rapport. And it is an honor. To me, it is an honor to walk alongside a human being doing the work. Mhm. Cuz sometimes you get human beings that come in and they just want some miracle cure or your snake snake oil or something like here just I don't want to feel this anymore and they're in crisis, right?

So let's talk about that because we do most people that do end up going to therapy are in crisis mode not prevention mode which if we did more preventing and breaking stigma of the word therapy that that doesn't mean that you're crazy when you go to a therapist.

Please understand that people. Cuz honestly like in my culture the second you know even in like some of my family members they're like what do you do? And I say you know which means you work with crazy and I'm like no I don't.

I create I work with people that are wanting to do the work and heal wounds and work with people because of the people around them that don't want to go. Yeah, Asian people I'm Chinese American Asian people are an underserved community also and there's a stigma for mental health and so uh uh hopefully hopefully that's changing through through Can we talk about that a little bit Brian?

I didn't want to Yeah, because to me that's important. You're right. You're part of our community. You are like of of of understanding that a culture Asian Latin or black or American Haitian Creole whatever it is where you come from a lot of us that come from collective Are you first generation or second generation or how?

My mom came here when she was six and my dad was born here. So um uh depending on how you look at it what's first generation Some people say first generation is first generation born here or first generation that comes here. here. I think of it first I'm second generation.

My mom is from a different country and my dad's from Puerto Rico which is that a different country? It is sort of it's a US territory. I don't know. But yeah, so then you must have I'm 2.5. 2.5 I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So Brian, I want to ask like growing up because I know for me how I felt.

I was born in America, but at home it was a whole different culture. So I you know, I would go to the school systems. I looked different. Mhm. And you know, you're trying to find your place in the American system, which I love my country.

And then you go home and it's a whole different like no, no, this is and so I most of my life didn't feel like I belonged anywhere just because of that. Um Did you have that same experience? How was it for you?

Yeah, so I'm glad you brought up the word belonging because um you know, actually so so uh in 2020, um you know, with all the George Floyd stuff, it it it brought a lot of emphasis on people's shared experience of disconnection or not belonging and I remember a lot of people were looking for therapists um who had similar um demographic or ethnic um you know, identities because they wanted to feel like the person understood and more

and more people were actually bringing their experiences of feeling like they didn't belong into the therapy room and I thought it was great, right?

Because people weren't it wasn't on anyone's radar really. Um And even in the EMDR community um we there were there were there were, you know, several themes uh related to trauma.

This defectiveness and responsibility, the safety, vulnerability, this um power and control and actually in 2020 a lot of the big wig EMDR people got together and they realized, you know, this connection and belonging needs to be added to the training because um it it represents the struggle of so many people in in a different way than those other ones.

And um yeah, and I and I felt that cuz I grew up in a I grew up um I grew up in Long Island and then um we moved down to suburban Maryland. But you know, there there weren't that many Asian people, you know, at my at my school.

And um yeah, I remember feeling I remember feeling feeling different. You know, my sister she could she could make friends no matter where we went. We moved a lot. Um me it was harder. Uh and uh you you look around the room and no one really no one no one really looks at me, you know, and um looks like me and uh there you know, there some stereotypes that, you know, were really you know, caused me to to feel self-conscious.

Um Yeah. regardless of whether or not I I fit them in any way. Right. Uh yeah, it's it is a big part of my story, you know, teasing. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, Brian. Well well pulling their eyes, you know, and uh you know, making sounds and uh yeah, it's a it was a big part of of of the journey.

Mhm. Um and something that I've done a lot of work on, you know, in my in latter part of my life. So you went to therapy, too. That's what I Yeah, good. yeah, well they they say all the best therapists have their own therapists, you know, cuz none of us get through life unscathed and um we uh we all have we all have work to do.

Yeah, and this is like to me, Brian, what's, you know, you're uh you I hate to say a unicorn, but you are. Like to me, like I think it's important for all of us to be represented. You know, because in the beginning how long where did you graduate from and how long have you been in the therapeutic field?

Uh I've been a therapist for uh uh I think a little over 10 years. Okay. And I went to FAU's clinical mental health counseling program. Okay. So let me ask you this now because now that we're on the subject um of two two humans that are considered minorities in in this you know How did you feel about the DSM?

Cuz I know that's something that it really frustrated me back in the early 2000s was because I'm like, wait a minute, who wrote this and why are we not taking consideration like someone that that is a spiritual aspect say a culture that has a heart, you know, strong spiritual background and now you're saying, well, they hear they hear some a spirit but now I'm going to diagnose him with schizophrenia because of many of these people that were above me or wrote this this you know, I think it was TR3 or you know, DSM-3-TR whatever.

I'm like you did not take into consideration the cultural aspect of things. I know that we've come a little bit of a way of understanding now because of the George Floyd and things have to be spoken about. I agree on that. And and spoken about with respect and understanding because what I felt and saw during those because I was working at alternative school during that whole thing and so most of my clientele were young black men.

And I I feel you know, like to me it's like we have to have this discussion in our society for our mental health and it isn't about blaming or shaming. It's about understanding. Right? So for you how how do you see that the whole like what they told us that is our Bible because basically that's what I was told.

The DSM is our Bible and I'm sitting there like Yeah, you know, as a uh with a you know, we have a private paid practice so we don't have to uh diagnose in order to get reimbursed by insurance. So it's a luxury and and I do see some clinical utility, you know, in diagnosing and being able to categorize various things but honestly I don't I don't I don't diagnose much.

It doesn't really serve much of a purpose. You know what? If someone has depression, Right. it doesn't really tell me much about why, or right? So It's like if you have a headache, you could be dehydrated, you could have an aneurysm, right? You could be hemorrhaging.

Um uh there could be a tumor, and it doesn't really help the treatment by just knowing that you have a headache. And the same thing with depression. I want to know like what happened. What was the precipitating event? What you know, what what what vulnerabilities do you come into life with that lead you more predisposed to getting knocked off your feet when something bad happens.

Um that's more relevant to me as a trauma therapist because we can then go back and you know, work through some of that adversity. Uh but but but putting a number on it and giving it a name of major depressive disorder doesn't really have any use for me aside from hey, maybe you had a really hard time when this bad thing happened.

Let's let's focus on that. Mm. Wow. I I love that. Yeah, I'm I have it on the shelf and I pull it out every once in a while when I Yeah. Me too. when I need to. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It because sometimes I do.

It is to me sometimes for boundaries or to know how to go into that space with the client because to me like anxiety and depression are symptoms. Like you were just saying. Like it could be honestly, it could be a 19-year-old with low testosterone due to microplastics.

Mhm. And that's why they that's why they're super depressed. It's not, you know? And then you have that along with oh, they're up all night smoking pot and playing video games. Exactly. The treatments would be very different, right? If someone has some medical issue versus someone with a behavioral issue.

And Mhm. Unfortunately, we're just not technologically equipped to understand what is happening at the root on like a biological level in order to use that as a diagnosis like the like the medical professionals are. Uh and I hope I hope hope one day we are.

I think we're heading that way. I I hear it from uh some people in the you know um in the like becoming doctors and stuff that they're now finally putting in like nutrition. Back in the day it was like maybe one two hours of of that kind of you know class and now they're actually making it part of becoming a doctor to understand the whole being.

Right?

So, you know, I know I could talk to you for another hour or two, but I'm sure you have to go and I have clients as well, but I want to know what what steps if the listeners like really curious about EMDR or can't afford it yet or like is there anything that they can do anything they can read is there anything out there that that we could give them that they could pick up on their own for now um in order to start getting help because sometimes you're right.

I was able to go to EMDR and do it quickly. I'm a therapist. I'm a researcher. I love to really learn, but like for someone that doesn't even know where to start what would you say to them?

Yeah, it's it's it's uh I got to I got to remind myself sometimes that a lot of people don't know how to navigate the system and if you went to Google and you started typing things in, you would get public possibly too much stuff and unable to know where to start or what to sift through and um and I would say that uh there's a lot of really great stuff out there um but you got to

be careful on what you find on the internet and so if you just type in does EMDR work, you're probably going to get a hit at the top of the page that says um no, you know, it's a pseudo science, but the truth is it's considered an evidence-based therapy with tons of research and so um if anyone's interested in EMDR, I would recommend they go to the uh EMDR International Association which is our um our national

organization and they have some uh you know, pretty good information there that you can uh look at.

The EMDR Institute also has a lot of information on, you know, research and what EMDR is all about. That was the um the institute that was developed by Francine Shapiro who founded EMDR. Um I'm personally happy to talk to anyone. Uh I you know, I I wrote I wrote a blog recently on how to get trained in EMDR because so many people therapists would be like, "Hey, uh how do I get trained in EMDR?"

And so, instead of typing up this long email, I'm like, "No, I'll just send them a link." So, Yeah, smart. All right, so where where can we find you then? Yeah, so uh mangrovetherapy.com. Our office is in East Delray Beach. Uh you know, I'm very I'm very accessible.

You know, we get pretty busy, but uh I I don't know. I feel like it's the karma rule. Like uh I I'm happy to take some time to help someone because I just I don't know. It's a good thing to do and uh it's You know, I I'm sure that they are struggling you know, more than I am.

So, I'm happy to share it. You know, there are a lot of people who work at community agencies who are now trained in EMDR. Really? It's not this elite therapy that's only you know, very expensive clinicians can provide. Mhm. You know, I'm a I volunteer for this organization that brings low-cost trainings into underserved communities.

We only train government agencies and nonprofits. And what's the name? For the reason of increasing the capacity of EMDR in these areas. So, so you'll be surprised, you know, people who need help and can't afford it, they can possibly find people trained and skilled in EMDR at um you know, local community agency for sure.

What's the name of the again? What was the name? I think I said it, right? Which name? The the one that you just said that you train um Oh, yeah, it's uh Trauma Recovery EMDR humanitarian assistance programs. It was also founded by Francine Shapiro and we we provide it's an all volunteer faculty.

We provide low-cost training to underserved communities. So, you know, years ago they would go to third world countries to do trainings cuz there were no EMDR therapists there. Now now these these countries have their own EMDR networks and organizations and it's really beautiful.

And so so now we're really mostly doing domestic work training, you know, nonprofits and Is there Is there any books you recommend a person to listen to that to get them to understand trauma more in their system? You know what I mean? Like Is there anything like any other people?

Cuz you did mention Dr. Gabor Mate. Are you talking about his book The Myth of Normal or the other one something about The Hungry Ghosts? I I I think he weaves a lot of his views into most of his books. You know, Body Keeps Score is a pretty good piece of general information on the impacts of trauma.

It probably sold like a bajillion copies. Yes. Trauma and Recovery is an old classic. It was written by this woman Judith Herman. It's considered a pretty classic text and she's the one who coined the term complex PTSD and and so she writes a lot about the difference between, you know, simple PTSD and something that's a little more it's a little different when a person has you know developmental childhood trauma.

So So that's a book I definitely would recommend as well. It's a little older but it's a classic for sure. And there's a lot of great stuff out there. There's There's a lot of great stuff out there. Do you have EMDR Network have a resource page maybe for somebody?

I mean or do you have one? At all? We You have a resource page. It's I find it so hard to pick and choose True. which resources to include on a page. Uh And uh I don't know if you get So, do you get people asking you to put their organization on your resources page or to put Yeah.

And uh yeah, and I'm like, "Nope, sorry." I mean, I I have to really really research you, and I don't I'm already researching enough. I You know, on my I Do you know what a kit a kit is? A K I T. I I saw this on um Therapy in a Nutshell.

She's got a a great YouTube. I mean, she's pretty big, Therapy in a Nutshell, and I use some of her videos for some of my clients cuz some of them like to watch videos, not do actual homework. Sure. So, I created a kit, which is just all the books I've ever has that helped me is on one link.

You know how you're like on a blog one link? I have I have this It's called Kitco or something like that, but it's for my company only and like everything. I'm telling you when I say everything that I feel that has helped me on my healing journey, and I'm still on it, guys.

It doesn't mean I'm fully And I don't think we'll No human will ever We live in a world that has a lot of hurt, but a lot of love. You know, it's both. It's having both and understanding that this is life. Some people get addicted to just wanting to be happy all the time, Brian, and that's not reality. that Kitco.

I I I'm a I love reading also. Um so, it sounds like that's something we share. Also, we love plants, it sounds like. I love it. I have so many books in my queue. I'm like, "Oh, I got to get that book." But but only so much time to read.

Right. That's a good Yeah, and then for for whatever helped you or what you think would help your clientele or anybody like on a resource because there's people if you're writing a blog, someone from a different country might come to your blog and then want to know, and then they see that, "Oh, this book.

I never heard part book." That's what I mean. We're all interconnected. We might have our own uh thumbprint and we're unique, but at the same time we are human and we're interconnected. lot of blogs. We write about a couple blogs a month. I blog about EMDR, so people are more than welcome to check it out.

That's a resource in itself, a blog. Yeah, I I We're We're Our whole practice are EMDR nerds. It It's a requirement when we hire new people is that they have a lot of experience and skill in EMDR. It's something that we really believe in.

Getting at the root. Yes, I love that. That is That's your tagline on your email, I saw. Something about Something about the root. Oh, yeah. Change it up every once in a while. I don't remember what it is now, but uh yeah. It's root It's roomy.

R U M I. Roomy. It was something like that. to get at the root. Yeah, I love that. Is there anything else you want to say before we say goodbye? No, I I I appreciate the invitation. You have a really great calm voice, perfect for a podcast.

I love finding out uh things that we have in common. I do believe that most people have more in common than they have um different and I wish that people would recognize that, but I just appreciate the opportunity to be on here to talk about EMDR and trauma healing.

Yes, Brian. Thank you for for coming and I was so excited That's so weird how years ago I'll never forget you and what you said. Then I run into you and then you said yes and I'm like, "Ah, I love this." Here we are.

Thank you so much for coming on and listener, please do not forget to trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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