Escaping Spiritual Abuse & Church Trauma: Healing After High-Control Religion

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor. It is me, Diana, a licensed mental health counselor and a certified integrative mental health professional, the founder of Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. This is the space where faith meets mental wellness and where we hold honest conversations that don't shy away from complex issues.

Today, I'm joined by someone I recently connected with through the Christian Mental Health Professionals Group. After a quick chat, she sent me a YouTube link. And let me tell you, it wasn't just any video. It was her and her husband's raw and deeply moving testimony about leaving a spiritually abusive church.

Their story was featured on the We Need to Talk podcast hosted by Ezekiel Azinwo. And I don't know if I said that last name right. If I didn't, I am so sorry. But I know he goes by Words of Ezekiel. And after watching it, I knew I had to invite her on.

So, Wanya is a licensed mental health counselor, perinatal mental health certified therapist, and founder of a faith-integrated practice where she supports women, couples, and families through life's transitions. She's widely known as the Mama Therapist. And she brings both clinical expertise and pastoral compassion to her work.

So, take a deep breath and settle in. This conversation may challenge you, offend you, or comfort you. So, thanks for coming on the show, Sawanya. Thank you so much for having me. All right. So, let's just start with a little bit of who you are and what you're about.

Um so, thank you so much for the introduction. So, I am a therapist, a licensed therapist in New York and Florida. I am a mom of three, proud mom of three. I'm a wife, I'm a pastor, prophetess. My husband and I have a ministry called Promise Promise House Ministries.

We've been in ministry since 2012. And um I love what I do. I I love counseling others since I was uh a high schooler, I remember taking AP psych and just being curious about the human mind, the brain, and doing well with that and and undergrad, running with it, and taking counseling classes, and I just love counseling and helping people and understanding why people do the things that they do.

Mhm. And culturally as a Haitian, you know, Latina, you know, background, our family, you know, the it's encouraged to go to, you know, become a doctor, a lawyer, you know. And back then in the '90s or early 2000s, when I um did my schooling.

So, you know, I I I knew in my heart the Holy Spirit really I got saved in 2000 and 11 before I got married, but before then, you know, I didn't know it was the Holy Spirit then when I was like, you know, and I was raised Catholic, but it was God wanting me to really, you know, that that was my calling, my pursuit, you know, that's what I'm here for.

So, I just knew then that I was always called to help people through counseling Mhm. and understanding why people do the things that they do. So. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's go to New York. What part of New York? So, I was born in Brooklyn, Mhm. raised on Long Island.

Yeah. Um and you know, much different Long Island and the the five boroughs, but um you know, living out there, I love that space. You know, Uh my business grew there. I have a lot of connections, family so there and we decided to relocate to Florida.

The Holy Spirit told us, you know, it was time to go and we're like, what? You know, I was like they had not for several years telling us that and we made the move and it was the best decision that we made ever.

You know, and we came down here was it two years ago for like a visit family and it was wonderful like, you know, awesome. Yeah, so Mhm. Do you have So you have an office in New York and an office in Florida? Yeah, so my office in New York is no longer.

I know I saw I'm virtual considered virtual. Okay. All right. But yes, the I have I see patients virtually in New York. Mhm. I have an office here in Florida in Wellington and see clients virtually as well here in Florida. Okay, so in Florida it's hybrid hybrid hybrid.

All right and then in in New York it is is online telehealth. Correct. Okay, I just want to make sure for the audience because you never know after this conversation somebody might want to, you know, reach out to you and stuff and which I will put all her information in the show notes of how to reach her after we're we're done.

All right and and and by the way, I'm a fellow New Yorker even though my accent I don't I I love it. I think that's how I connected with you. I'm like, girl, you're from New York. I love this. Oh, you heard you can hear everything.

Yeah, girl, yeah, you have a strong New York accent and it's good it's okay because a lot of my family members back in the you know, that I remember when I was younger and living there cuz I'm from Queens. I'm I'm from that borough.

I was born in Staten Island but I was raised in Queens until I was 12 when I was kind of forced to move, you know, you have no choice at 12. Anyway, so we're going to talk about the word cult, spiritual abuse, and religious trauma because these are terms that I'm seeing more and more being spoken about on TikTok and social media.

And honestly, I have clients coming in um with that church hurt. Um so, from your professional lens, how do you define these terms? And why does clarity matter? So, the word cult, spiritual abuse, all the all those three are very different, right? So, a cult is a term that's used to describe any group that feels extreme or unfamiliarity.

Um and from a trauma-informed perspective, it's more accurate to focus on this high-control group. It's this highly controlled group that where they these environments that it could be religious or not religious where leader has this certain ideology and has demands um from the people.

Um and it, you know, it causes them to be extremely loyal to that leader, right? And it causes harm to those individuals. Um and a cult is highly could be highly manipulative group that exploits its members and can cause physiological, financial, physical harm, and it dictates everyone's behaviors, their mannerisms, their emotions, their thoughts, their questioning, should I make this decision, you know, you know, at home like I got to talk to the leader that, you know, as a family, right?

Let's say it's a you know, um and so, that's you know, those are like that's an example of a cult, you know, being and utilizing manipulative tactics, you know, um as well, you know, um to be subservient, loyal, obedient. And spiritual abuse is a little bit different.

It refers to that misuse of power within those spiritual settings or religious contexts. And it it, you know, it comes from a place of control and results in shame or exploitation of others. And it could be coercion, a way to honor God by by, you know, you know, by using this form of control over the the people or the individual.

Um, and it's often subtle. It could be homophobia, sexism, you know, um, using scripture, um, silently around trauma, you know, um, like, "Okay, like, um, uh, some scriptures I've heard like, you know, like, "You'll get through it." You know, like, kind of like, I feel like downplaying the meaning of other people's experiences of of trauma.

Yeah, that's spiritual bypassing, you know, when when you're uh, someone is hurting or it is like the high control group. I mean, I I think I've mentioned it in the previous episodes talking about this book I read by Tia Levings. It was called, um, oh my goodness, um, escaping Christian patriotism.

Pa- uh, not patri- patriarchy. Um, oh my gosh, I am butchering the title of the book. But, it's Tia Levings' book and she talks about how she was in high control um, Christianity and how she escaped and all the abuse. I mean, she talks about the abuse and it it was an eye-opener for me because sometimes we don't know because we trust the leader.

Yes. Right, Sonya, we trust the leader to lead the the flock. And the next thing you know, if the leader is like she was talking about earlier, um, using tactics like, to me it's sort of like a communal narcissist where they're utilizing their power, no matter if it's religious or not cuz I've seen this in the new age as well.

You have this leader. Right? And and as I speak about this, can you maybe I I I don't know if you want to go into the personal aspect of what I heard on your testimony with in that podcast or not, but because you personally experienced it in a big environment without naming the church or whatever the situation, but just like what were the things that you saw that now looking back you're like, "Man, that was a red flag and I missed it."

Um some of the things I saw was using manipulation tactics to get people to um pay for like words, prophetic words to like if you don't do this, then if you don't pay me $2,000, then you're going to lose your house. Wow. want this word like and so like I you know, I remember like a family member, distant family member, they were in the verge of like they had a squatter in their home and they're like, "Well, I need prayer.

They're going to come in with salt in the house. They're going to spread salt in the house and I need to get this word. How much you pay your rent?" 25, 400. Okay, you got to give me $2,400 cash in addition another 20 to double that for me to you know, so those things those things that I would see um other things I I saw palm reading.

In a church? Oh, yeah. Yeah, and that's when it was time to go. Yeah, yeah. Palm reading. So, how did they justify that biblically or they didn't? privately what with the pa- he would do one-on-one sessions with people. Wow. And I think this is a way once again to manipulate cuz you're having these convers- it's not in an open setting.

Okay. It's one-on-one that you're having and I'm there as the third party as I was I had a I had a role like a leadership role there and I'm I'm witnessing these things in the back end, right? Of these things that happened. I'm like, "What's going on here?"

So, yeah, so you know, mixing mixture of that, right? The palm reading, asking for money for for words, um another way another thing like um having you know, sexually um advances towards uh people in the church, having children with some of the the the people in the church.

Like the babies are looking familiar, you know, looking like the pastor, you know what I mean? The women arguing over attention that they're receiving from that leader in the that because they're having sexual relationships with that individual who's married, who has their own family and his own, you know, funding, finances, that's a big a controversial one as well in the back end.

Once again, I could see, but you know, and also too, um, those, you know, there's a piece here as well we have to think about like a lot of the people who are attracted to these type of settings, I noticed a pattern. And well I noticed a lot of these people are broken, they had a significant trauma.

A lot of these people come from broken families, they they come extreme complex cases of trauma, financial abuse, history of that, right? Um, so those are the type of people are typically attracted to those type of settings. That's what I noticed. That was No, I noticed that too, Sonya.

No, honestly, like that because you're you're searching to ease the pain. And so when you're love bombed, right? Let's talk about that a little. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, because you hit it on the nail right there. So when I first met like for example, you know, my my testimony that when I first met the church, it was like, "Wow, you're going to be um, leaders in the church."

And they love bombed us like, "You're going to be given a building which we were. We were given We're going to get this building." And and you know, "You're going to get um, these roles and God is saying that you have this going on your life that you're going to be this bishop and and and people, you know, you're going to have this business."

Which I did I do have the business now, but you know, it's a mixture of like you're you're you know, you're using your gifting as a prophet, the prophetic word to get what you want out of that situation. You see a a young couple, right?

That could be running your church where you could be funneling in money and funneling people and abusing more people for your gain. Yeah. It sounds so ego and pride. It is so ego and pride instead of humility and spirit. You know, and that and and the Lord calls out all out in the word.

Like and that's the thing like how to me when I when I have clients that have gone through um you know, I have quite a few deconstructionists Mhm. and ex-evangelicals and some people you know, that's another uh terms that are coming up, you know, like I I follow this podcast called the new evangelicals and the reason I follow them is because I want to learn.

I want to learn what's happening. Some a client introduced me to that, right? Because to me it's like all right, if there's this movement happening in the churches in the American churches, mind you, like it and it's cultural, too, because we have the white church and the black church and the Hispanic churches and each one like what you're talking about when I hear um bishops and prophet I never experienced that kind of church background.

I have experienced Presbyterian background and Baptist Southern Baptist background and even in that realm there's different cultures in that. So we have this big long you know, big wide umbrella of denominations that all claim the name of Jesus. Yes. Amen. So how do we you know, say we both have clients like you know, cuz I'm sure after you coming out of this situation you know now how to help the client that has come with religious abuse or in it.

They're in the the religious abuse or the spiritual abuse or the like they hate the church. Honestly, there's some that are like they're hypocrites. I want and they have that anger or that like I'll never deal with the church. How do you deal with that?

How do you What do you do? Um how I approach that is looking being honest and looking beyond the labels like you talked about the evangelical and deconstruction like getting curious about what's really going on underneath. What from what I see in my work and what I deeply understand from my own journey is often the heart of deconstruction isn't rebellion.

It's not people rejecting Jesus, it's just people who feel like they're losing hope. They people have come to the end of themselves spiritually. People are exhausted, they're heartbroken, they're confused. I went through that that uh uh uh um a period of time and I could definitely empathize and relate, you know?

And from as a as a provider and and personally, you know, and I what I would recommend to providers is coming not from this judgmental space, right? Being curious about understanding and being empathizing keep you know and giving them that space to heal and really go through that, right?

Like it's okay like to be heartbroken. Being honest with your father, with God, right? your your your your creator and your therapist. That's that space. God, why you allow this to happen? Why you allow me to go through this situation? Like it did I make you know like being honest, I'm angry with you.

I'm angry about what happened. Hey, there's a season I wasn't going to church for a few years after that. I didn't pray for a few years after that. You know what I mean? And that's okay. That's okay to lose and I think that's what those group of people are are coming from and they're more educated.

Now we're more educated, there's more understanding. So there's more So they're wanting to understand who wrote the Bible. Like what's going on here? Like what do I have to follow X Y and Z? Is it not just what my parents taught me and and what I understood growing up in my home of origin?

Is there more to this? So that's where that comes from. You know, I Yeah. No, Sawanya, you're hitting it. Like to me what what I see is when you have people that are hurting or broken or they are raised in that. Because like I you know, my my family introduced me to Catholicism and Santa Maria, okay?

And so when we're raised in a certain group that and the village tells us this is how it is, then we believe this is how it is until we get challenged. And when we get challenged, that's like the dark night of the soul you were just talking about when when all of a sudden you're realizing like wait a minute, this human being you know, and we all are Listen, I love the church, so I'm not trying to knock it.

It is understanding how to go into a healthy space, right? With a healthy leader because we need our pastors. Yes. Right? But it to me, if a person is on a pulpit and they are not pointing to Jesus Christ number one and number two not encouraging you to open up the word yourself to really understand it in context, context then what are they doing up there?

Are they talking about politics, identity politics? Are they talking about okay, for A, B, and C to happen, then you need to do D, E, and F, so then that's how the money because if it's about the love of money, guess what the word of God says about the love of money?

Yes, the root of all evil. Yeah, the the love of money. It's not money, right? It's not money. It's not money. It's the love of money. It is the attention of the heart. So Sawanya, as you were like now you're in a whole different space.

I mean, I heard that testimony, you and your husband, it's very powerful and very authoritative, you know, like I you know, like now looking back, how would you prevent your younger self from going into something like that. The advice I would give my younger self would be like trusting I think that when I look back that first day when I met him in that one-on-one cuz we had I think that really questioning everything.

And once again like back then we didn't have social media and the information we have now. Yeah. But when I met when this happened over 12 years. But I feel like being curious and questioning doing my research and due diligence about the the pastor, the church, about what they're teaching, sitting my behind down and watching the way that they're they're they're were teaching the congregation.

So now I get curious. I get curious about who people are. I I do my due diligence and my research now, their their theology, who where they're from, like who taught them, where did they go to school, like where they you know, where is this you know, so I that's what I advice I would give my younger self and to take my time to do that.

There's no rush. No, there isn't. And honestly like this is the beauty of the living word that we get we have the freedom at this time to look at it and open it up and there are good teachers out there on on YouTube that actually have the heart of Christ.

Yes. Okay, so it's not let I'm like telling like trying to put it like all Christianity because there are people out there in the spaces of social media that's like it's all a whole bunch of hogwash and it's a bunch of BS or like oh it's all about you know, it's a business and and that's what breaks my heart with the American church because many churches I don't care what color you are.

I have seen where they've taken something that that's beautiful like in the book of Acts, right? How a church is supposed to be and have created a business model, and the Lord doesn't say to do that in the word. No. No, it does not.

It does not it would Yo, so the I mean I mean my my my New York coming out. I love it. Please do. This is about being real. People need to hear that just because we're licensed therapists, we're not human beings with our own experiences.

And And this is why, you know, we have these conversations on the podcast, you know? Yes. So, go ahead. Yo, girl. So, I'm going to be you know, so the business model piece, so you know, I know that's very you know, like I said, my experience seeing what it is like I've been in a storefront church where we had no money coming in.

Right? That's where I came. And then I've been in the church where the the prophet's making millions of dollars and have churches in Italy and Nigeria, Germany, and and Cali, and funneling and knowing the people are struggling. They're asking like someone just asked me the other day like told me the other day that a church member, another church ministry asked the pastor for money for rent cuz things are difficult for people right now.

Yes. That No, and they are active not just active member. They help every week. They're very involved. Does be So, and he's, you know what I mean? Like he helps other people. He's gotten Yeah, so um last week I heard that and and it's all about the heart of the father, right?

Like that's what I am strong about. Like you hit a a a pain point like right there like discerning, right? Using your discernment, you know, that little that little voice, right? That instinct telling you like whether or not this person really genuinely cares or is it about mammon?

Is it about other things, right? Having the heart of the father. And when we're pastors, we're our That's how you know. Pastors and prophets are different. Prophets, they're just there to give a word and that's it, right? But a real true pastor, they're going to have the heart of the father.

They're going to have the heart of the father. That's what they're going to have. And you're going to see that in what they do. Their actions. Do they take the time with the people? They're taking time to teach. Do they love on the people?

You know what I mean? Are they asking, you know what I mean? For And that's another thing. For For Is money the forefront of the church? Are they spending an hour sermon on why we should be giving? Mhm. Mhm. That's something That's These are things I've seen.

Yes. An hour with scripture for why we should be giving, you know? So, I think that um you know, to hit hit back on what we were saying before, you know, um you know, making discernment I think is very important, healing. In order for us to discern, we also have to be a place of healing.

Right? If you're not healed, are you going to be able to discern in an effective way? Right. You're not going to trust Usually people that are not healed do not trust the Holy Spirit inside of them. They're putting all that energy and power in the hands of the others or those that are supposedly higher up.

Honestly, I don't When I study the word, I don't see that higher up stuff. There There's When I've gone to churches and I'm like, "Wait, what? How are you higher Because I raised raised Catholic, so I always questioned that. Like, "Wait, I have to go into this little cubbyhole with this man I don't know to confess my sins?"

I don't get that. You know, and I understand that the word of God, especially in James, does say confess your sins to one another. And I'm I'm in agreement with that, but when it becomes with that another human being is higher than me or has more power than me in a spiritual aspect or that that's my connection to Jesus or somebody comes up to me and says, "I have a word for you."

And I don't know you. I'm sorry, that's a little psychic kind of stuff for me that I don't play with because of my background. Amen. Because we can acknowledge experience, right? That the Santa Maria and and mixed up with the Catholicism, we're weary.

We're no, like we're using discernment. You understand? Like, "Hey, like, and you're not the only one I've heard that from. Really? Yes, yeah. I have other friends, colleagues, you know, who have experienced that and they're like, I'm weary about that, Sawanya, but, you know, receiving prophetic words from like, what you know?

Well, it sounds new age-y to me, that's why I think because I come I come from Catholicism, Santeria, I went into new age for a long time, and then boom, I'm now, you know, I'm I'm a devoted disciple of Jesus Christ, not saying my way is the only or right way either, but I do understand that if you're claiming the Lord, then you better be in the word understanding who he is because, guess what, he has a word for you in his word.

And there are people in my life that I have for accountability. I do, that love the Lord, and that's super important because we are meant to be in community. So, Sawanya, how do we say that a listener is like really on edge or they're like, I want I hate the church, it's been abusing me, I'm realizing this now, I'm all alone.

Like, what what word can we give them of of like our professionalism, right? Of um like, where to start cuz you did talk about maybe um starting with looking within to see what hurt or pain points or trauma that you have to heal in order to really be.

So, what would be a couple of ways or maybe resources or something that you know of with your clients that you have helped with? Definitely. Um so, A, you know, acknowledging, validating them, letting them know they're not alone. I think therapy is a great approach.

EMDR specifically I'm trained in. Um so Can you explain EMDR for so those that don't understand it? Yeah. So, layman's terms, it's re-wiring your brain's response to that painful in this specific aspect, the spiritual experience and reducing those triggers tied to the shame and fear or the control.

So, that's going to lead you know, we're like bringing those people memories, bringing it back from to the prefrontal lobe, re-wiring it, filing it back in the back of your brain. That's In layman's terms, that's how I describe it for them. I love it.

And I think it could be very, you know, I've seen it be very effective. I do EMDR intensives. And EMDR I think the EMDR intensives are more effective because it's a longer stretch of time. But, EMDR I think is very effective. IFS, I've seen people do that and And now explain that one.

Yeah, and it helps clients connect with the parts of themselves. Yeah, internal family systems. That's what she's talking about. And EMDR is I Go ahead. Movement desensitization reprocessing.

Yeah, and the reason I asked to explain it because like who knows like somebody might be listening like what is these initials and so it's also just helpful for them because sometimes we speak in our in the church Christianese and in the clinical clinicalese and so to me like you and I probably could like you know, get off this podcast and speak New Yorkese and or or our Caribbean background like listen, so I mean knowing that you understand like Santa Maria, I'm like oh my gosh because when I talk to people they're like I what?

Santa who? Santa Claus? I was what? And and it's really hard to explain, you know, even though there's a botanica over here in Pompano Beach like honestly and it is part of culture. Like this is where I know as a therapist I have to be sensitive for that.

We have to be it is part of the culture which I love my culture. Yes. It's like a hard thing to you know, sometimes you get all agua Florida. I want to. Just because the smell does remind me of my grandma, but then it also reminds me of my grandma doing some witchcraft over me.

You want to hear funny like I mean you know it's a weird story in relation to what you said. When you said that vision or a memory recently where I was just driving down in Palm Beach and I saw a huge Botanica truck.

Huge and he had the had it was early morning like 8:00 a.m. He just probably did a ceremony the night before and it was multi-million dollars he was coming houses. He was coming from a millionaire's house who had horses. So I'm sure when they do the people it's not you know people think it's just socio-economic class has anything to do with it's whoever it does not discriminate anybody.

It's all our it's embedded in our culture. It's part of who we are. It's part of who we are. Yeah. Yeah, how do you How do you explain Santa Maria to people? Guys, so Santa Maria is a form of a religion right from the Caribbean Latin Caribbean that kind of integrates Catholicism with witchcraft.

And what they use they have statues. Where you you think it's Catholicism like cuz cuz we're praying to statues, where we're using rosaries, but also integrating here where we're offering sacrifices with foods to those saints. We're doing certain prayers, certain baths, certain rituals or oh well, you want you want to do well on this test or you want this person to fall in love or you have bad luck.

You know, there was one time I was advised to put a boss's name in a bottle. Even things like that. And then they put scripture and I didn't know, broke the bottle and the the supervisor was in the hospital. Oh my gosh. For like a month and like a couple like a while like like whoa.

That's when I knew that this is not of God, right? They're like the leader was harassing me. I said I just you know and like I said it's embedded in our culture. Well, just do the these are rituals that's been embedded a part of us, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. And so to me there was and you're right. I had to do EMDR for what you're talking about because of a lot of my, you know, I'm not shy about my complex PTSD and everything. Like and I and I love my family.

I do. I love them. They're a product of where they grew up. Like, you know, we we talk about intergenerational trauma and stuff like that. And I know people from all different walks of life and all different faith backgrounds and atheist, too. Those that say they have no faith, but obviously they have faith in not having faith.

But anyway, I was That's a whole different thing. Yeah, but but you know, like when I talk about these things, like to me, the peace Jesus Christ is the prince of peace. I've been searching for a long, long time. Not that I've arrived because honestly, our walk, our sanctification is continual.

It's evolving. We are continuing to learn. The word stays the same though. Amen. The word stays the same. But as we are practitioners, like I know Saunya, you and your husband are being called to to do this ministry because it's needed, but you have this understanding from the ashes, here's the beauty coming.

Right? It's the same in my world. And guess what, listener? It's the same in your world. So, we're sitting here as two Christian women who have come We hardly know each other. Okay? But honestly, when I think of Saunya now, I'm going to think of her as a really strong sister because she understands.

Cuz sometimes it's lonely, um in this place because of the background like meeting someone that has a background like me now, it's like, "Wow." And this is this is why it's so important, listener, for you to figure you out. You have every right to figure out your faith, every right to figure out your purpose, every right to figure out the why.

You know, even with the pain, because if you're listening cuz Zonya, I know that you have sat with people that wanted to kill themselves, wanted to you know, I mean, we can go on and on with the clientele. How long have you been doing this for?

Uh as a therapist? 2008. Yeah, so it is a long time sitting with human beings in their pain. Yep. Okay. What what words or verses or whatever that is coming up for you now that you would like to share with someone that might be sitting in this moment with holding on, like just barely holding on.

Allow yourself to grieve the process. Hope deferred can make the heart grow weary. Take time to understand the reasons behind your emotions. Acknowledge how the experience make you feel and bring those feelings into your private prayer time. Bring it to your therapist, a trusted therapist or licensed professional.

Right? Be honest with God about the hurt and how it's affected you. Healing begins when you make peace with the pain through forgiveness. Or forgiving yourself and those that wrong you. Yeah. And this is why I love both well, not only the word of God, of course.

But some people come to us that don't you know, we're clinical, ethical, professional, so we have to be in that part as well. If they want um the Christianity, then we're allowed to give it when they bring it up, right? Um but not all my clients are Christians.

So to me, what you just said is for everybody. It is for everybody. And this is why I do love um not only cognitive behavioral therapy CBT because it's a renewing of the mind, right? But internal family systems because you have to understand if we believe in Father, Son, Holy Spirit three in one, well, we have a bunch of different parts, too.

Yes. I love that I love that perspective. I love that. I love that. But so so Onja, so tell me like I'm I'm in the IFS rabbit hole, right? The internal family system rabbit hole um a lot lately. I I that's something that's really given me comfort in my own walk as I do the work myself.

It's also really helpful. It is. It It's a really helpful tool. Yeah. Um what have you seen? Like how do you use it? Cuz you use EMDR as well. Yes. I I do I I use IFS I I do it a little bit.

That to I do more EMDR to be honest. So, but I feel like it's powerful. It's a powerful way for you know, the church or often leaves parts of us feeling like that silence and shame unworthiness. And then the other healing the spiritual guilt and the shame, then all the part be restoring the trust and the inner safety.

Um so, those are the part in in terms specifically with this topic today, those are parts that I would be working through um and separating your true self like the God-given self, the spirit self of who you are from the critical or fearful voices that may be internalizing for you that toxic religion.

Yeah. supposed to. Yeah. And that would be Okay, so it would be the managers, the firefighters, and then the exiles, right? The exiles are the little the children uh inside of you or the ones that did not have um the space, you know, cuz I Okay, so we're going to go into our culture a little bit cuz I don't know if that's your experience, but I know in mine it it's more like we had to toughen up.

Like our family needed to make sure we were tough enough to handle this world because it was going to be hard for us. And it's like why you cry book it down your Why are you crying? Right? Or or it's the manipulation in a way like God doesn't like you acting that way.

Yes. Yes. So they use the spiritual aspects to hurt you, right? And that creates then later on for you to be an adult in a system like that. Ooh. Yes. Right? Because you These are the stories, these are the things you've heard throughout your upbringing your childhood.

Yeah. You're not going to question the adult a figure. You're not going to question them. Right? That's the just same way I'm not going to question those in my culture like you don't question mom and dad. You just do as I say not as I do.

You know, I'm right, you're wrong. I know what's right for you. You know, when you think about internally that's how we're showing up. And that's how we show up even like in the workspace. That's how we're showing up in in in our relationships as well, right?

The workspace, personal you know, and as a personal relationships, at church. You know what I mean? Yeah. Unless we're getting that those parts of us healed. Understanding like you said, I love my family. I understand that. I understand like this is what they knew.

This is how they raised me. You know, but if you're not healed, you're going to find yourself in systems, in spaces, in relationships like this over and over and over again. And you're going to understand why am I attracted? Why is this happening?

That why this reoccurring? Right. Right. And it's not putting the blame, but it's also understanding we have a part in it, too. That's what Bingo. Right? It is like understanding like okay, I'm feeling this, this, this. Why do I keep attracting the same kind of guy?

Or am I keep going to the same kind of boss or the same kind of it you know, and then we try to blame everybody else or we become victims and I mean sometimes in the healing process we have to have the little victim mentality for a second or two or you know, maybe a year.

But when you're stuck in that and we're still stuck in that continually the continual pattern, then maybe it's time to look in the mirror and be like why? And what am I scared of finding out? Right? So as we close this this episode, is there anything that you would like to tell the listener maybe I don't know, anything that has helped you, any Bible verses, books, anything that really got you understanding the situation that you got yourself out of because sometimes I know people are embarrassed.

Embarrassed that they were able to fall for that. Yeah. You know? Yes, yeah. Um what I recommend is well the first thing I think like separating yourself from that cult or the space that you're in, right? I think that's the first recommendation I have.

Um I think that by like me finding like a support group, my group was like a women's support group was a really great way because you feel seen and you're not alone.

Um and so at the time it wasn't like a spiritual abuse support group, but it happened to be that a lot ironically where a lot of the women the women Bible group that I joined, they experienced some type of spiritual abuse and then from there it was like we were holding on I was able to hold on to them.

They're all able to hold hold me accountable and to walk me through that process cuz you know, going back to the church and what that look like now for me individually and as a you know, my family as a whole, you know, and also to wait the I would say I said the the support group, Bible study group if not that, therapy.

I think that, right? I think the EMDR is a very But a therapist like Salwania, okay, because to me it it could be a dangerous thing if you go into someone that doesn't know spiritual situations like that or cultural because it's you know, it's different like because remember how a Christian therapist or a Christian coach or leader, they come in with maybe their denominational mindset.

Does that make sense? So it's like having to do your due diligence like you said earlier of like research the therapist and see and and you are allowed to ask questions like, what is your faith background? You say you love Jesus. Well, what does that mean?

Are you a Christian? What's that mean? Are you just using the word Christian so you get more clients so you get paid? Right? Yes. Okay. That's what I was saying. And your support group, where did you find them? Do you know of any websites?

I mean, I know call to peace which I'll put in the show notes and I and I did interview Rebecca Davies. She studied spiritual abuse but domestic violence, spiritual abuse in the church for a long time and I just had her the episode just well, by the time this comes out, the episode came out on May 28th.

So but I've I've interviewed a few people that has the understanding of spiritual abuse and domestic abuse and stuff like that. Do you know of any? Um not just the the I joined Moms in Prayer. That's the international group. They have small groups all over the world.

Okay. Good. Um so that's how I found that. It's a prayer network and they have local support groups. Like I said, it's global. Okay. Um and that's how I was able to find that. Um Mhm. I for and also too, I think that asking in community like I don't know if you guys A lot of me I like to go by word of mouth and people knowing, understanding, not just going online, but also Yeah.

So I remember anonymously like asking on Facebook like, "Hey, does anyone experience this?" And people were like flooded with with with, you know, experiences, believe it or not, and were giving recommendations as well. So I think Facebook is a great uh idea I have.

I Anyone per se specifically and that if you have any, I'd love for you to share with me. I just came to me, Religious Trauma Network. I'm pretty sure that's a website. Religious Trauma Network. And And it's just Listen, if you are deconstructing or you're an ex-evangelical or you just come out of a cult or you or just got this pain and anger like I I hear you.

I I I'm I validate that you have this grief that like Sonya says that you have to process and work through. And these networks, but also be careful because what can happen in these networks, it could become a cult-like mentality as well. Okay?

Where you have the one leader who's still not healed and then angry and then it's just like, "No, this is This is how it is and this is why it's so important for you to sit and be still and know God. Be still and know the Lord."

And how do you do that? Be in his word. Even with the anger like I think what happens to us humans, we we think of God as this human being, but he's so much more than we can fathom. His ways are not our our and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

And he made you for a purpose even with your pain. That could become the purpose. So, anything for you? Ooh, do it, girl. Yeah, yeah. So, Philippians 4:6-7, do not be anxious about anything, and the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Jesus. Amen. Amen. I give you guys peace, and I just pray for everyone listening to this podcast today. I thank you, Diana, for the opportunity, and I just pray that you know, you who are listening receive peace from listening to us today. Amen.

Amen. Amen, Sonia. Thank you so much. And everything about her information will be in the show notes. I will put it in there, and all right, listener, once again, thank you for being here, and don't forget to trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind.

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