Leaving an Abusive Christian Marriage: Legal & Faith-Based Support

Welcome fearfully and wonderfully made human. I'm Diana, licensed therapist, holistic mental health educator, and your host of the Holistic Counselor Podcast, where faith, science, and holistic healing intersect. This show exists to break the stigma around mental health, especially in faith communities and culturally diverse spaces.

We dive into the deep stuff, trauma, identity, healing, faith, and hold space for the mess, the questions, and the breakthroughs. Today's episode is one of those beautiful unexpected moments. I met Ashley and Chris Bruce at a few Palm Beach Mental Health Counselor Association events and through them was introdu introduced to today's guest.

I get a lot of inquiries to connect and honestly I don't always know which ones to say yes to, but I'm so glad I rescheduled and made space for this conversation because what unfolded was powerful. After just a brief meeting, I knew this woman had lived through fire and come out refined.

Her story, her survival, and more than that, her thrival is one I couldn't wait to share with you. Lysa C. Newkerk, JD, is a faithdriven attorney, family law mediator, and mom of six. Yeah, you heard me, six. She currently works at Bruce Law Firm, where she specializes in high conflict divorce and complex family law matters.

She's trained in collaborative law, a Florida Supreme Court certified family mediator, and a certified Christian counselor, but she's also someone who lived it. Having gone through both an unhealthy divorce as a teen and a mutually respectful one as an adult, she's walked through the pain, the legal chaos, the grief, and now helps other women do the same with clarity, courage, and a whole lot of compassion.

Now, if you're new here, just know this isn't a polished stepbystep howto. I don't always know where these conversations are going to lead. We might talk about divorce myths, spiritual abuse, mental health, identity, or how to help a friend who's stuck in a controlling marriage.

Or we might go somewhere completely different. What I do know, you're about to hear from a woman who brings both legal wisdom and lived experience. And she's here to speak truth into the lives of women who need it most. Welcome to the show, Alicia.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to to be here and to to share what God has done.

Amen. [clears throat] So, let's just start like your your story is powerful. Can you share a little bit about your own journey through divorce and how it shaped your calling to help other women through this legal and spiritual wilderness?

Yeah. So I think to start I have been where a lot of women have been or are at a lot of where your listeners are at. I have been in the toxic, manipulative, abusive marriage. I've been cheated on and demeaned and degraded. Um, I know what it is like to have scripture so twisted in such a way that you almost lose your faith.

You lose your identity. Um, I understand what it's like to not even recognize or understand what's going on.

Um, you know, even to have those struggles of no, I am educated. This isn't happening to me. You know, um, how much you can lose yourself. um to make a marriage work, to try to be that that good, submissive Christian wife and and do all the right things.

Um I know what it's like to finally have the courage to reach out to someone in in a church in in leadership and be told, "I'm just not praying enough or I'm not having enough faith or I need to fast more. Um I need to submit more.

Um, I'm being dramatic. It's not really, you know, as bad as as as I'm saying. Um, it's something that caused me to have so much shame and so much guilt and really struggle. I mean, struggle in my [sighs and gasps] my faith. But I did get to a point where I said, "Okay, this just this can't be right."

Uh, what I'm hearing, what I'm being told, everything I'm doing is wrong. Everything is against God. I'm always in a place of losing my salvation, no matter what I did or how I tried, you know, and I got to the point where I said, "I've got to figure this out.

I have to know what this Bible says." And it took me on a journey um of really reading it myself. I I grew up in the church, but it was very much peace meal, you know, you know, the stories. It was very legalistic.

It was here's all the don'ts.

Yeah.

Um it wasn't necessarily encouraged to, you know, read or think. It was

Can I ask you what what denomination you were raised? I mean, if you don't want to tell us, that's okay, but I get it cuz I mean,

yeah. No, it was a very deep Southern Baptist. Okay.

Which is very legalistic,

but but that's

not all Southern Baptist is bad.

No, exactly. And that's what I want the listener to understand is and and what I've experienced with

um my clients, the clients that some of them come to me and my own personal because I was raised Catholic,

but I and it's like there are true Christians in these denominations. Then there's true nar communal narcissists in these denominations that utilize that power and greed. And it it's the same. I mean Jesus had to deal with it with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, right?

And it is under, you know, this is why I'm always like, let's start with the word like what do you really know about it without guilt or shaming the person? It's like what do you understand? Because what I'm hearing and what I hear from a lot of people, Alicia, is you got Bible darted and and you and they take the untwisted scripture.

I just had Rebecca Davis. Do you know who Rebecca Davis is?

Oh, girl. Okay. When we hang up, I'm going to tell you all about you.

I write names of people.

Rebecca Davis. And I actually had her on and I will put it in the show notes for those that are listening. Um it was episode 59, I want to say. and she wrote scripture 40 years she's been um doing this work unt and it's called untwisting scriptures and so wait till you start that that too and and so anyway you know let's address the elephant in that in the church pews that's what I like to call it

what are some of the most harmful myths Christian women believe about marriage submission and divorce and how do these ideas keep women stuck in unsafe relationships ship.

Yeah. So, I [sighs and gasps] think a big one is divorce is the unforgivable sin that even if you divorce for a biblical reason, you are then tarnished with this scarlet letter. You know, it's you're selfish. You're dishonoring to God. Um, and I think [clears throat] marriage has become this place of of domination and you stay no matter the cost.

Right? There's it doesn't matter what it's doing to you or the detrimental to your kids or anything. And submission, this was one I really had to work on

for a while.

Me too. Me too.

You know, I think what's put out there is that submission means staying quiet while your husband makes all the decision. It's it's manipulative and and submission means like you can't think for yourself. It's complete control. When that could not be furthest from the truth.

Biblical submission fosters love and respect and safety and guidance. It's this mutual act. First of all, it's not coercion. You're not forced to do anything. It is this choice that you make with your partner to be more Christlike and to serve one another.

It's not this doineering you just listen and shut up and you know go with whatever. Um, and I think that's been so twisted in culture and it gets so many women stuck and it makes them lose their voice.

Well, I think it's also the way I mean like if you're raised in a certain village, okay, and that's all you know and that's what's expected because that's what we do. The village models what what it is for the children, right? And so then you grow up like I was model and I think I talked to you right before I pressed record is like I was modeled by a bunch of single immigrant women.

I mean there were maybe a sprinkling of men but it was a bunch of strong women that came and to this you know especially my mom came to this country. I mean I have a dad obviously because I'm human and I'm alive and and I'm not a test tube baby and but it is it is what is raised.

And so what happens is if we're not encouraged to really understand the scripture completely in context, right? It it becomes a cultural thing. Like I know I'm married to a Southern Baptist preacher's kid. Not the preach, not the preacher, but the preacher's kid that was raised in the South.

So I saw stuff and I was questioning a lot. I would question all the men around me and they really would go up to my husband and be like, "You got to teach your wife to be submissive." And he just would laugh at them and and be like, "She's my wife.

Don't tell me what to do with her."

Good for him.

Right. Right. That's why I stuck around cuz I'm like

I'm like, "Dude, you pull that stuff on me. It ain't going to work out too well for you."

But but we I had to learn

what mutual submission is, Lea. because I also didn't know like I I I could have been overpowering and they you know they were throwing that Proverbs woman um not woman you know who I'm talking about

31. Yeah.

Well that we'll talk about that later. I'm talking about like

like I'm the I don't know sometimes he says that if back then there was like a witch trial or whatever I would be like at the stake and it's okay

because I would always question things.

Yeah.

Right. That's just who I was. That got me in a lot of trouble. I mean, in Catholic school, I got beat down all the time because I was always wanting to know why. I see now now I'm in my 50s and I go thank you God for giving me that

because that was protection

because a lot of times you're not allowed to ask questions and if you do right it is so much push back and you have that fear of you know being isolated and you know being shunned by that community and

and that's your community that's all you know so it's all high to me what I've seen it's in high control environments not just what we're talking about, not just Southern Baptist because honestly I don't want to put them that way.

No, it could be in any It could be in any religion. I I mean I we've had them in all the churches and all in honesty. So religions I really Yeah. in all religions and all the faiths.

So I don't think it's just one that just was particular my where where I was, you know. And it's just it's such a powerful motivator to stay in a controlling and an abusing relationship when you think God will be mad at you, right?

Or this is his design for marriage. I think I had such a twisted demonic, you know, view of what marriage was because of what was allowed, right? And and then you put divorce is this unforgivable sin. And

you know, we're created to be in a relationship with God. So when you are then in a relationship that is tearing that down and wants you to come to the belief that you know if you get divorced or if you stand up for yourself then that relationship is ruined.

You know you're not going to be able to have God in that relationship. It does it's it's confusion. It causes you to be confused and to tolerate behavior that maybe in another way you would have never tolerated or you know you find yourself I remember getting to the end of this and really

there's a lot more resources now than than perhaps there was then

um you know when I was going going through it so it was all new but I remember reading a book and and um the object of my affection it's an older one

okay

and being like is this person like a fly on my wall everything in there was happening to me and this is this is I mean it was the biggest eyeopener for me and that was the start of my like scales coming off like okay this isn't normal this isn't okay this isn't right I don't care

what everybody is saying you know and by everybody I mean the very small people that I you know let in

um because I too was raised very strong like my dad raised us five girls to like almost never need a man right like We changed our tires, we changed our oil. Like you will learn to do this and you know um so it was very hard for me to get to this position where what I don't have a voice and I

how did it happen? How did it happen? And that that to me that's what what Licia like I see with some of the clients right like [sighs and gasps]

h how how did I get here? I am an educated woman. I knew I knew better or like I was taught not and and it it and I bring this book. I'm I'm going to try to get this author on my on my show, but a Well-Trained wife.

How I

I bought it. I I just started I did buy it from our last conversation. I haven't had quite the time to

How did I escape the Christian Patriarchy? And that book I I just it just keeps coming up in my system because I read it in two days and you know, I was like, "Oh my goodness." Like, but she she I don't like you kept your faith.

I don't know where she's at. She when I hear her speak, you know, she's like, "I'm spiritually private." And I get it because if you read that book, you'll get it, too. Like, so how did you keep how do you do that? You know, you're a divorce lawyer, right?

And I think I had that conversation with you like what? You're a lawyer and Bruce Law Firm honestly is breaking the stigma for me

on lawyers on lawyers. I just because I've always had bad tastes of situations that I've seen and it's true, right? you you probably have that there's a stigma not only in mental health but like in in lawyerism I don't know how to call

lawyering

lawyering lawyerism I don't know so how is it how do you reconcile faith and justice in your work and what do you wish pastors or church leaders better understood about abuse and control in marriages

is a good question and I've got lots to say on it so um I think the first part is how do I justify it with with my faith. And trust me, I have um this has been brought up many times and I say this, I believe God wants his children and his advocates in every area, in every profession.

Um I think my philosophy is I do not ever promote divorce. I don't I will never tell someone you should get divorced. I will tell them you need to get safe, you know, and that kind of thing. Um it's a personal decision. However, divorce is happening in and out of the church almost equal numbers I think at this point.

Right?

So these people, these women, they are entitled to good legal representation, right? I believe you can go through this process with honor and integrity. I believe you can go through the divorce process without completely ruining your children. I believe you can go through this process without depleting every marital asset you have on legal fees, fighting about stuff that

doesn't need to be fought about.

So I think that's how I I I fight for justice. I hold on to the success stories. It does get hard for sure. Um

but you know and when I used to have my own practice, a faith-based law firm, I mean they would ask me like, "How did you get through this?" I'm like, well, I'll tell you, Jesus, you know, I wouldn't have gotten through it without, you know, that.

Um, but so I think that's I think God has called his children to be in every area and in every profession.

Um, and

you know, it's it's not my decision.

I never, you know, it's it's other people's, but I can walk through them in this process. I can help them find paths to healing, find resources to healing. Um, let them know this isn't the end.

Mhm. [clears throat] right? Even though they feel I'm telling you the grief and the fear that some of these women go through and I mean like like they feel so stuck like domestic violence is and okay we're going to talk about the duth model now because so many people don't know what that is and I that stuck to me the first time I ever took a DV uh I have to every couple years for my license to take domestic violence and AIDS

right and so to me

the one guy who taught me this duth youth model wheel of Minnesota, you know,

they now created one for Christians and Native American Indians and other faith. So, so I will put it on.

Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.

So, you know, let's talk about that a little. when you were reading it, right, when you were looking at it, it's like this is sometimes what I do because I'm not going to I don't know what actually is going on in and I've seen domestic violence too between two men because I live in South Florida and you know I worked in the secular envir environment for most of my career and or or women against men and

and men against women and it just you know it's like when two human beings come together and one has the power over the other mostly It's women because honestly since the beginning of time we had no rights and we've been fighting for these rights for a long long time and I'm very grateful for those rights.

I am I'm very grateful for those rights.

Um so let's talk about that like okay

how does how does spiritual abuse show up uniquely in Christian marriages and how can we recognize it? So I think [clears throat] the duth mo model and the the Christian they have a lot of similarities right there's there's a lot that goes in but when you have a Christian aspect to this abuse it just adds another layer a very

um you know thick intense layer of using scripture to control and manipulate um man um manipulate and deceive and dominate. And you know, they they say things and use things like, you know, the Lord wants you to be broken and crushed. You know, um, God wants you to be long-suffering, so that means I can just treat you however I want.

You know, um, you're going to be stronger and more de devoted. It it puts fear and shame and and basically they twist scripture to whatever part they're trying to control of you.

So, how does that play out? And what what do we see, you know, even in the legal field, right? So we see things from, you know, definitely isolation, right? That's part of it. You know, they want to isolate you from everybody that you know, family and friends, and you almost get to a point where you're afraid to be around people

because you don't know what you're going to do wrong or say wrong and what your consequences are going to be after.

Exactly. Right. And it doesn't have to be a butt whooping. Let's make that crystal clear. No. Right. We got to make people understand that because a lot of people think domestic violence is a bruise in the eye, which it is. But I want I want to go in deeper with that, too.

Yeah. So, it's everything from being just screamed at to have things thrown at you to them breaking something. It may not even be to you, but to breaking just showing that control. Um, you know, they minimize it and they they deny it even happened, right?

Or they say things like, "Well, you're a Christian. You have to forgive me. It doesn't matter what I did to you or how often I do it. If you don't forgive, then you're going to hell,

right?

You know,

right? Or Jesus forgive because I've seen it where it gets that intense and and then it's like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You're supposed to forgive me 100 or 449 time, you know, 7* 7.

7* 7. Yeah.

So, I try to do the math. Sorry, guys.

Yeah. [sighs and gasps] Um, yeah. I mean, they they they use it. I mean, I think some points they even get to a point where they're not even saying sorry. I think some true narcissists, they don't even apologize. It's just a command. You're you're commanded.

It doesn't matter. And they they could do the most unthinkable, awful things the night before and they wake up the next morning like, "What? You're still mad? You haven't forgiven me? What's wrong with you? How could you do that? What kind of faith?"

I mean, it's and it just messes it does it messes with your mind and your head like, "Wait, what? How?" You know, and you do you start doubting like maybe it wasn't that bad. Maybe, you know, it just it does it twists. It messes, you know, it messes with your your thoughts and, you know, and that ties into the emotional abuse, right?

When they add a religious aspect to it, you know, it's it's more than just name calling and demeaning and making you feel, you know, bad or worthless or you can't do anything right, you know, walking on eggshells and the games. It goes to the core of who you are, right?

if faith really matters to you and and you know you believe you're this child of God and God put this authority over you right the husband it got to the point where it was like God was saying these words to me that I am this horrible person like that's how I started taking it like wow I am really just just this horrible wife and this horrible mom and this horrible person and

I'm never good enough.

Yeah. And it it but it was such a twist and that is how it lasted so long and how he got to that of I started hearing it as if God was saying it and it started yeah it became like my identity okay so what more can I do how how can I you know try and you know and that's nothing about salvation it's not about our works you know

right

um and of course the spiritual abuse comes up in in submission

you know and and

it was it was the worst when I would hear like you're the neck and he's the head. I go, "Well, then in the Bible then I don't know, Lord, you should have like instead of making us out of the rib on the side because that would to me is like side to side mutual submission."

That's exactly what it is.

Um, I should have been made out of the toe.

But that's exactly why God did it that way. It wasn't from the head or the foot. We It is a partnership. That's why it should be mutual. It It was never meant as something. Think of it this way, right? If it's supposed to reflect how God is with the church,

God doesn't control us. He doesn't take away our free will. He doesn't say you're not allowed to speak or feel or think or be, right? Of course not.

Even when he does bring conviction, it's in love, right? It's he's telling us this is not good for you, right? This is going to lead you down a path that you're, you know, not seeing or here's deception that's happening. It's never this

dominating control. if you don't love me and obey me, I'm going to send you. That's not It's such a distortion of the beautiful gospel that his love and grace

of who Jesus Christ is, his the true nature of what I have read for decades now that's gotten me through through hell and back on this earth is understanding who Christ truly is. Right? It's not these denominations. I'm so sorry. Because to me, denominational stuff is like that's control.

This, oh well, it's not my way. So, I'm going to start my own and I'm going to start my own. I'm going to start my own. And so, all of a sudden, how many denominations do we have? Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Right.

I'm going to start my own church. I'm going to because what is it? It's pride that comes before the fall.

Yeah.

Right. It's pride. And and and that's what I try to teach my clients is that those that are not believers, I'm like, okay, this is the ego. Those that are believers, this is your pride. Those that are not believers, this is humility. And those that are believers, this is your spirit.

You see, and so it's trying to understand these things and also looking within yourself because, you know, it's not blaming the victim. I don't try to blame the victim, but I don't want them to continue the pattern in the subconscious without understanding why they keep attract you know wanting to to either find another guy doing the same thing or another partner or or something like that.

So how did you know like what would you say to someone listening right now who feels crazy stuck and confused because her church told her to pray harder, submit more or stay no matter what? So, first I would say you're not crazy. [sighs] Your feelings are valid.

Amen.

Um, I would say that remember church leaders are human and fallible. I would say that confusion comes from the enemy, not from God. That God wants you to have clarity and vision and purpose. Um, so seek him for your worth and validation. Um, I would say that I completely understand the feelings of being stuck and not knowing what to do, right?

You're often times you you get in survival mode and every day is such a challenge just to survive that you you almost can't even think outside of that. And so I would say one, get some resources, you know, get um get educated, have a consultation, understand and know your rights.

Oftent times, you know, some of that fear of staying is because they're told lies like

um I'm going to take your children away. You're never going to see them again or I'm going to keep all the money. You're not going to get this economic abuse, right? You're not going to get any money from me. So what are you going to do?

you know, so if they have a consultation and learn their rights, little bits of that can break off,

you know, those those lies. And and I would just want to encourage if you are in this situation that God is a God of peace and love and joy and forgiveness and grace and mercy and

he wants you to be whole and healed and to get on the other, you know, other side of this dark tunnel,

you know, and I would say get some counseling, you know, if you're not already to to get some therapy. in some counseling to help find your voice

to help learn how to set boundaries to make a game plan to um to start the healing, you know, of of what where you're at to break off those lies. And I I I want every woman to really, if they are in any way in in this to really understand and think about when God created Adam and Eve in Genesis, he did not say it was good and finished until after Eve was created. we are his crowned jewel, right?

That's when it was good. So to have this deception thinking like this heaven, you know, loving heavenly father is up there just saying, "No, keep getting pounded no matter what it is." And and I look at it, yeah, I have six kids. I love them so much.

There's no way I would just be like, "No, you know, you're going on the school bus. You keep getting punched, but keep going." Of course not. Right? And God loves us as his children exponentially more than how I could love my kids. And so to to think that God is up there just hammering and saying, "This is my will and you just need to suffer and take it and and be abused and be degraded."

I don't read that in my Bible and I have read it from Genesis to Revelation.

Exactly.

Too many times to count and that is not what it says. Yeah.

And so I would just say um get the support group that you need and break start breaking off these you know these lies and know that it is a process. It takes time. It does.

Um and I understand and it is pieces and sometimes you can only handle one piece at a time.

That's okay.

And that's what I've Yeah. That's what I realized with some of the women that I've worked with or or like other people that I know that have gone through situations like that. And even in the book that I read, it starts off with realizing and then little by little making a tiny step, a tiny plan because safety is the most crucial especially if you have children.

Especially if you have children. So I mean most people even those even those that were not believer that were like come from women in distress or when I worked in the alternative high schools you know you know there was things happening and I would see you know kids being taken and and stuff like that.

Um it's it's understanding that you're not alone, right? You're not alone. Like she said, there's a lot of resources which I'm going to put um some of them in the show notes, but it's the safety plan of one step at a time,

right? I I'm I don't know your story how you got out, but I know with some of the people it is like,

you know, the bank account a little bit here on the side. It is finding out who you know and that will allow you to stay until you get back on your feet. And there's shelters, there's places to go and understanding your rights. But most of all, if you're trying to keep your faith, because I do know people that go after this happens, they go so far away from God [clears throat] because they feel like, why would a loving God allow this to happen?

How do you answer that? Well, I'm not going to pretend to to have all the answers, but I will say this. Um, abuse and hurt, [clears throat] that was never God's plan. That's that's from the enemy. All of that is from the enemy.

He comes to seek, kill, and destroy in any way, shape, or form. Right? So, it's not from God. And I don't think God is up there saying, you know, condoning it. He's actually there saying he it says he he holds our tears in his hands.

So God knows and he is there and and I would say [sighs] [gasps] for me it was where else am I going to go? What am I going to you know really turn to? I had to reconcile that to you. I had to go through my emotions of Lord I'm angry at you.

I'm I'm angry that I did pray and I did fast and nothing changed and actually it got worse and I was angry and I was like God is big enough to handle our emotions. It didn't surprise him that I was feeling all of this and it was one thing at a time of seeking him learning to hear his voice right through reading you know other books reading the Bible and what he has to say about it.

Um and and ultimately him saying that was never his design. That's not his design for marriage. That's not his design for his daughters to just be abused and and taken advantage of and and demeaned and threatened and

that's not that's not his design.

When I heard some of those stories of what I'm like, wait, what? Like and and it's because that's what they the training of that denomination is that no like

your body is not your own. the authority is given to your spouse. So, you don't have a right to say, "Oh, I've heard it." I was just talking to my daughter. She's 23. She was like, "Mom, do you know what this popular influencer said?

She says there rape isn't a thing in marriage and I don't get a say." And I'm like, "Whoa." Okay. So, let's And I'm This was just last night. I seriously. And so, I had a whole conversation with her of that's not what that scripture means, right?

That means that the two of you are supposed to satisfy those intimacy needs.

Not that

you're just a piece of, you know, something to lay there. No. And I really had to go through her of like, honey, that is not. And she knew it. She was like, I mean, instinctively, I think, you know, she knew it. But

this is what's being that's what's being put out there in Tik Tok land. And I know

and and I'm like, wait, the younger generations are falling for this because that's what the older is teaching because it is it's a thing that's being taught out there. And that's why, listen, I don't care what denomination, what religion you are. Take your sacred text and really try to understand it in context because some people are are literal Bible people.

Do you know what I mean? And they take everything literally. I'm like, wait, no. But there's history, there's poetry, there's the I mean, if you really really understand how even theologians, even those that are not Christians that teach history, historical Christianity,

it's like understanding the word in context. And but first of all, it's also you having your own personal relationship with the creator of the universe. Are you sitting still

all the emotions? All of them. Right? It's all of them because some people, what I've come to realize, Licia, is that some of my clients come in, you know, 25 to 35 year olds. Some of them still, you know, never been married, never, and they're so scared because of what has been put on them.

And then there's some that have got into stuff that is just horrific, like what we were just talking about. And then it is, you know, like they have such anger and hate, but they see their heavenly father as sometimes the father they've had on earth.

Yes.

Have you seen that, too?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that is where we first un have an understanding of that. Um and and I I had some struggles, you know, with with that as well. Um and I read a book, The Good the Good Father. Um Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just another way the enemy is destroying.

I mean, he wants to destroy everything God made, right? How we see fathers, marriages, genders, everything wants to be changed from God's original, you know, design. Absolutely.

Um Yeah. And it's just we've got to get out there and break the lies in a loving way, you know. Um they don't need to hear more of what we stand against. They need to hear truth.

Oo. I think that's that's one to repeat, girl.

Yeah. They they don't need to hear we we don't agree with this and this is wrong and this is sin and this. No, they need to hear is truth. Here's how God designed it. Here is God's faithfulness. I know one scripture that has really gotten me through is Romans 8:28, right?

That he works all things out for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. I've been through a lot of traumas in my life. Really and truly have been through a lot. And I remember God really just saying, but you know, I was complaining to him at one point of something and you know, upset, right?

I'm sure I'm open like God knows you made me like this. You gave me all these emotions. Here they are. I don't hide that from from him others, but you know, from him

and and him really just saying, you know, if this was going to help one person, would you would you go through this? And God, let me tell you, God has been so faithful and this is how I could do what I'm doing and that I still even got remarried because trust me, I have people ask, "How did you ever

Okay. Well, let's that was one of my questions. I don't think I I put it on the rough outline, but I want to know how did you

So, um I believe I actually got to the point where where I was healed, you know? I mean, I did the a lot of hard work and a lot with the Lord and a lot of fasting. I had had my share of counseling in different periods of, you know, and seasons.

Um, and I was whole and healed. And actually, I was to the point of where, um, I was actually good. I wasn't even really looking. I was happy. I was raising my kids. I got one graduating, you know, college at that time, one going to college, middle school.

Like, I was not even, you know, looking. Um, and during COVID, actually, um, we went out. I God had had me step away um sell my house, step away from the law practice and

go and do tent revival and preach the gospel

in an RV. Yeah, that's what I did during co

What? I What? Do you hear this people? A lawyer doing tent revival. Wait, I'm I feel like I'm in a in a fifth dimension.

Yeah. So, um, I did and it was crazy and it was completely a leap of faith and people thought I was crazy for sure. You know, I had a successful practice at that point and I started winding it down and released other, um, attorneys that I had working for me and gave them case loads and, you know,

um, and I went in obedience and I learned and I saw everything that you see in Acts and miracles and my son and I prayed for people and healings happened and people got out of wheelchairs and it was incredible. Yeah.

And uh we lived out um Acts, we lived out Luke, uh you know, where he sent them out with no clothes, no money, no nothing. And we did that. We were dropped off in a town and

wow,

just shared the gospel with people who would listen and let God provide. And um yeah, on one side I'm like, this is this is crazy. And I have my kid. What kind of mom am I? You know, but um his faith is his own. and he prayed for people who couldn't walk and then could walk and people who were in pain and you know so

yeah so that was a long-winded way of saying um God opened I mean my heart and I met you know this man and um it was all the Lord I I I'm telling you from start to finish it was really all the Lord because I did not think that this is where I was going to you know be and and end up and um but it was all the Lord and Yeah.

God just moved and then since then we've had a few more kids.

Wow. And and you know that's obedience and that's a hard place because like you said you [clears throat] just did something that culturally or worldly or you know earthly view of things where people would be like wait what especially in our culture like I love the freedom I have in this country.

It's just understanding the obedience of when you're sitting still because you said you were fasting and you were praying and God probably gave you that. It's like how when I wrote these two poetry books during COVID and I studied the these three books of the Bible, Revelation, E uh Ezekiel and Isaiah

and then I started creating artwork and the poetry without Chachi PT. So, it's really coming out of my brain. And at the end, people were like, "What were you taking?" I was I swear I wasn't taking anything. I was just in prayer because

to me, I had the choice, like we all have free will and choices to what to to stay in fear and go and sit there and scroll and doom scroll during COVID. But I I was just like, Lord, I I need to stay as a therapist in alternative high school, but I also need I I want to know what's going on.

I need to be in your word because the closer I got to his word, the more peace I felt,

right?

I remember being in his word and being so hungry like, "Okay, Lord, I am a very literal person, right? Um and so I'm reading this and like Lord, I don't see this. I don't see this at all. No wonder no one wants what churches have. like we're just as broken and medicated and you know what I'm saying?

Like we're not shining anything. I don't see any of these miracles. And when I would talk to people that have, they're like, "Oh, that was in the olden days." I'm like, "Really?" Cuz I'm pretty sure God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

And I started really like, "Lord, I need more. I want more. Like, I want all that you have for us. Like, I don't want to get to the end and be like, "Oh, I left all this on the table because I was too scared or too caught up with whatever."

Mhm.

And really started seeking and praying

for that and um God answered it in a way that I would have never

Exactly.

Sure. As I'm talking to senators and things like that along the COVID road because you know they were wanting to say you're not allowed to do this and you know everything. I'm like no yes we are. We're actually outside.

Yeah. Well that's the beauty of being knowing the law like you studying the law you knew your rights. Like this is I Okay. What what gets me? And I was like, "Wait, what? Stay stayf Florida.com."

All right, girl. Like when I was like, "Wait, huh?" And then they asked me, "Do you want to be on it?" And I'm like, "Wait, lawyers are asking me to be on this website." And then I and I'm like, "Well, let me pray about this because I got to pray about every single thing I do because I could be a Martha constantly."

And I had to really really I mean the Lord worked on me hardcore to to be um Mary.

It's still it's a constant struggle.

Is it is it is it is a and especially in this is in this day and age and culture and this fast pace of like come on we got to get stuff done got to get you know and it's just like wait no we need to breathe

listen

and be still

and and listen. All right, tell me about the same marriage Florida because I'm still

gonna sound like an oxymoron, right? Um, so Bruce Law Firm, we actually do believe in marriage. I understand we are a family law law firm. Correct. Um, however, we do do other things than divorce. I mean, there's adoption and paternity and and custody and child support and you know, appeals and all of that.

So, there is more than just divorce even though divorce is primarily. Yeah,

but we believe in marriage and we do believe that if a marriage can be saved, it should be saved, right? And so we get everything across the board from true abuse, like let's help you get safe, right? To I'm just done and whatever, you know?

Um, but this website that that Chris Bruce has uh created is meant to be just for resources for relationships to strengthen uh you know, marriages for your kids. So the incredible thing about, you know, Chris and Ashley and this firm is that they want people educated.

It's all for free. Every resource, all the books that they have written, they will send it to you hard copy or electronic. Um, they want you to have this information. And I think that's why, you know, when I moved over here and decided not to open up my own practice and join this team is we believe in the the same of having, you know, excellent quality legal care should they choose to go the divorce.

But if a marriage can be saved, it is worth saving. All the statistics and studies show that.

However, there are times that

it does need to end and it is toxic and it is, you know, abusive. So on this website, you know, we we do list out uh resources and and articles and therapists and, you know, mental health professionals and even other types of, you know, professional and resources.

Maybe you have a a kid on the spectrum or, you know, things like that that you need parenting evaluators or coordinators, stuff like that. So, it's just a wonderful way for us to give back.

Um, so our firm doesn't, you know, really take proono cases, but we give back in other ways by resources and information. Um, they do events,

you know, and things like that with mental health professionals and all of that.

That's how I found them.

I mean, and I read and I read Chris's book. I think it was Chris that wrote it of uh the narcissist something. I forgot what it was.

Your narciss Yeah.

Or something. And I'm reading it and I'm like, "Oh, dang." Like, okay, now this is good. And it is it is a resource. And and and I want to be careful too because I I also know of of spouses who, you know, like have been labeled these things when they weren't, right?

And so I don't I don't want this to come across as a man bashing episode at all.

So let me say this. So we uh we have clients of both genders, okay? We do. It is not just an allwomen law firm. go out and you know defy men. That's not what it is. It is about justice. And let me tell you, there are some men who are in very bad toxic relationships as well.

Um I think in in terms of his resources in writing, I think probably the majority lies in the women, you know, falling into that victim or, you know, that role. Um, but we certainly represent men as well, especially even in paternity cases. And right, you know, it's about

it's about justice, right? It's it's about um not being having another trauma of going through the legal service, you know, the the legal system.

Um, you know, and and getting justice, getting what you're entitled to by law. Um, you know, with the mindset that the law is, you know, the best interest of the children.

Mhm. Um, and and I and I understand too, and you know, people come in and and they say, "Yeah, everybody is kind of a narcissist these days. I get it." Um, and perhaps they have narcissistic tendencies or qualities or behaviors potentially, right?

Um, I think us as a firm, I think we've been trained so much and we deal with this day in and day out. We know, you know, we're not we're not there to correct them. That's going to be for their mental health professional that they're dealing with. and and a mental health prof.

Let me let me just tell you because we are we live in a culture and I just spoke to two different psychologists two different episodes right before you right and and we talked about that that to have a true diagnosis you have to go through a psychological evaluation complete that means two to six hours complete the thing is with narcissism though

they [clears throat] won't go through

they won't most of them don't come to therapy they don't see that they have a problem and and that that's where it's like a conundrum of like

or they come to one session just to tell you how bad their house is and and oh I know I've been there

and then just fix her just you just fix her I'm done

or him they got the problem and that's why I when I was saying earlier like we have to you know it's a balance

it's holding both like okay yes they hurt me and I'm a victim but I also need to know to get out of the victim mentality. What do I need to do different?

Right.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So that's trauma.

What got me here?

Right. Trauma informed.

What brokenness got me here? What pattern of behavior got me here? You know what what needs to be different?

And I think that that was the key thing in me ever thinking of getting remarried again. It was I did that hard work to look at those things and to understand myself.

Yes. It's, oh, it's gut-wrenching and it's not quick, you know, it's really not, but it's worth it, you know, to finally get to that place of

of healing and and not where you have a victim mentality. It's like, okay, this is what happened and here's the choices I made and here's the choices I will never make again and you know, where are my back?

And how do we and how do we heal those places, right? How do we heal those spaces or those parts of us? Uh uh because that's the thing. Sometimes it hurts way too much or we feel such guilt and shame that we don't want to look at it or see it and that's why we get stuck in it.

And honestly, like I even it's biblical too because we sometimes some of these different kinds of denominations or the way we see gospel, you know, it's just like, oh, you do this and you'll get this and and you have to understand like read the book of uh Lamentations or Job and study it for real like or Ecclesiastes.

I love that because there's nothing new under the sun.

Yeah. Well, it's this kind of microwave Christianity mentality, you know, like let me just get it real quick. And you know, it's it's not that way.

Mhm. And I don't I don't for me personally, I don't think Well, maybe for me, healing would have never come without the Lord, without God and scripture speaking into each of these areas. It took a lot for me to get his voice out of my head.

And I had to go through my own process of cleansing. And my kids thought I was crazy cuz I was getting rid of everything, you know. Um, I mean, you got to let God speak. You really I I don't I don't know how to to really do I mean, there's tools and and you know, it's better than me, obviously.

There's there's tools that they can learn and and boundaries and, you know, they can have an understanding of where they came from and, you know, where they're going and all of that and goals, but to have true healing, God's word is alive and active.

It has to speak into all of those areas, whether it is fear or shame or guilt or the scarlet letter of divorce or, you know, whatever those is. And you got to take one at a time,

right?

And let God speak into it and get his word in there so that the enemy's voice is drowned out.

Yeah.

And he does heal.

Oh, amen. In his time. In his time.

In his time.

In his time. Sometimes. I mean, honestly, it wasn't overnight for you. Oh, no.

No,

not overnight. It was

I would I would say it was I mean I was in counseling prior to and and you know did a lot of therapy and stuff like that, but it was a really a grueling for me. I'm like, okay, I'm the type A. I like things to get done and okay, let's set the goal.

And if you know, they were saying six weeks, I bet I could do it in four, you know,

I that is my personality, right? Yes, Martha. So, I read some books that it was like it takes three years or something like that that I don't remember what I read, but I read something it takes like three to seven years to heal from this and I said, "Oh, Lord, we're not."

I refuse to give this person three more years or you know so like I went on a mission and when I tell you for an entire year I other than raising my kids and you know working enough to maintain and and be a single mom I went through a lot of grueling you know activities books scriptures that and was like no I want to know this I I don't want it sugarcoated let's get raw real fasted

prayed went through scripture okay Lord here's what I'm still struggling with I you know, get over this and um you know, got the wisdom and the knowledge.

So, I mean, it was a grueling.

Yeah. I start with Psalm 139. I mean, that helped me because I to know who I am, right? So, and the whole thing, especially the last two verses of Psalm 139 is the prayer of, you know, of search my heart and know my anxious thoughts,

right? And that's so, you know, I know we're going to I could probably talk to you for another hour, but you have clients and children, a bunch, and I have

that all got kicked outside.

Yeah.

Roll outside playing in the sprinkler.

Exactly. Oh my goodness. That's old school playing the sprinklers. I love that. I love that. Good for them. I mean, yeah. So, is there anything like you would like to say or do you know of any free or lowcost resources you recommend or any scripture that I mean you you already named Romans 20 8:28 but you know what would you say what would you like to say to the the Christian woman afraid

that divorcing means she's failed God

yeah I really had to give this one um quite a bit of of [clears throat] thought um and I guess here's It is there needs to be a separation of I've had a failed marriage then I have failed my creator.

I believe the only way we can truly fail God is if we walk away from him. If we renounce him and we say I I'm done and I'm not going to believe. I think that's the only failure. I think everything else is humanity which is not a surprise to him.

Um, he's there with open arms wanting to cover. I mean, you look at the woman at the well who had been married five times and was with someone who was not. Jesus didn't condemn her. Did he bring about conviction for her own healing and well-being?

Yes. But he [snorts] he brings us and wants us into the loving, you know, relationship. Um, so I just don't view it as um, we're failing God. I think you can make choices. You can grieve the Holy Spirit for sure. You know, we can sin and those things, but God is always there.

You know, the the father with the prodical son, he's always there with open wine arms, [clears throat] you know, welcoming us us back. So we've got to break this that

I don't know that I I can fail him and you know where he's

or hide or hide behind big leaf like

it says nothing can separate us from his love not of this world the next the height depth nothing and if you just take that scripture alone if that is the only one you know that you really just focus on that nothing can separate me from his love

right

I can choose to walk away and say no I don't want you

um but I think That's a failed marriage or a failed, right? We wouldn't say, "Oh, a failed business, you failed God." No, great. Good job for trying, you know, get up and do it again. Yet, we think if we've failed in a relationship area or department that

we failed God. And and I just don't view God like that. I

Yeah. No, it's true. Like how I I because I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, I try to help um clients reframe. And so instead of saying to me to me failed means you're still in the victim or stuck

situation when you reframe it and say I'm learning

I'm I've learned from this. I've I am becoming a better human because of it and that's why that that happened and I need to where do I go with it now? Like I mean, right? You grow, you change, you learn, and you and you

develop and and that's what the that's what being a human is about. That's what growth is about. Like the growth mindset

is to understand like, okay, yeah. I mean, the pain is what I think we say it's, oh, we failed. It's the pain. And so, we have to look at the pain. Get it out of our brain and look at the pain. Oh, now I'm gonna start rapping.

But just just kidding. I had a lot of caffeine this morning. Can you tell people?

It's great.

Anyway,

I I think that's why I I really um resonate with with Romans and and using the pain because

none of it while I do not believe God causes pain. I believe he good things come from the Lord. I believe the enemy comes in and causes destruction and you know pain and all of that. But God will use it and he will turn it into purpose.

I went to law school, you know, because of it. You know what I'm saying? So, he can use it if you allow him to and if you turn it over. I mean, trust me, there has been a particular trauma that I almost like dared God like, how are you ever going to make good come out of this?

Like, there's no way. And he did. I mean, in a mighty and powerful way. I got to witness to a lady who was ready to take her life. So, he used it in I mean, I was just like, "Okay, Lord." That was a very humbling moment that I needed.

But, you know, he he uses it and he's he's there and he is faithful even if it, you know, has those moments, you know.

Um, and I think that Jesus understands,

you know, yes, he is our our, you know, God is, you know, up there, but he understands. He he was here. He became human. He experienced it. All of it.

He came to show us the way. I mean, think about in the book of Isn't it the book of Acts where he's called the way?

Yes. The way, the truth, and life. Yeah, absolutely.

The way.

Yeah. So, I would say um a couple things kind of maybe to end. One thing that we we kind of skipped over that I do want to say to to maybe um those in a religious leadership position. I just want to really just like caution them.

I I really wish they would understand how detrimental it is when a woman finally finds a voice and courage to come share something in confidence and they are told it is their fault and they're not praying enough or they're not Christian enough or they're not submissive enough. what that does.

And and so I for me my thought is

you are in a very special special position of leadership and shephering the flock. And I think that is a real abuse of your powers to go that when you don't know all the the facts and all the pieces and to just turn something around that they're not doing enough.

Um, I just really want them to know how detrimental that is and what that does for um, you know, people's faith and what that does and causes them to go back and stay in these cycles which is harming them, children, generations to come.

Um, so I do just want to put that out there for those in that

religious, you know, leadership role. You know, it you're called to a higher standard.

Exactly. you know, so you need to shepherd your flock well and with wisdom and and guard those words and and start breaking these lies that are just out there.

Um,

so that is kind of one thing that I wanted to say there. And then as far as, you know, for women who are in this, there are resources there online there are resources. Um, I mean, you know, there are free events and, you know, the stay married books.

I mean, there really is a lot of resources here. um you know get a support group even if it's one if you can only get one person you know get a support group get out of that isolation in some way um you know and I would say have a consultation just because you have a consultation with an attorney does not mean you have to get divorced

right

but you then at least know your rights yes

you know if you've been lied to and you're fearful of things that you don't need to be fearful of

you know um it's it's just

it's a good. It's a, you know, a good idea. And during consultations, we can give you, you know, specific things to help you prepare, things to think about in your, you know, specific situation that, hey, let me, you know, because again, like I said, we have all the ranges, right?

I mean, so I mean, there are some people I say, hey, you should go take your car to the police station, have them scanned. You're being there's a tracker device on it. You need to take your phone to Apple and have them go through, you know, so

because people don't know. They don't know. They're trusting the the human being that they're they're married to. I mean, this is it. Like, you're in love or not even I mean, I don't know if you're in love at that point, but maybe you are.

I mean, you're holding so many different emotions.

For sure. It's real.

And you're allowed to hold all these emotions as a Christian. I just want to repeat that again.

Absolutely. you're allowed to hope because I have come with so many women that that that come to me and they're like, well, they feel like they have to be this good Christian woman and and everything and they like this perfection and this Proverbs 31 woman and because that's what it's the pounding of that.

And I'm like, wait a minute. The Lord made you with your gifts and your talents and your story and you're here now. What are you going to do with it?

Emotions are not a sin. No,

feeling emotions are not a sin. You can a behavior from that emotion can be a sin, right? You go punch somebody or something like that.

But having the feelings in the emotion is not wrong. It is not a sin.

That's right.

I have an emotion pillow for my three-year-old. She gets big feelings.

Well, and it's to learn how to regulate. And this is why we need each other. And that's why like listen, I'm going to put the website, the stay marriage website. Uh call to peace is another call to peace ministries. um the DUTH model.

Everything I could think of, I'm going to put it in the show notes for any listener that's kind of curious. And yeah, the consultation's free. Correct.

No, not for our firm. I don't know if you have uh I don't know if there are firms that have that. I would say do your do your research

um you know, and who you're having a consultation, you know, with. But

uh no, but we do offer different options, you know. So there's, you know, like a cheaper, you know, 30 minute one or 2 hour zoom or in person. So we offer options.

I guess my my thinking was when you were talking about the list of things cuz I would not know these things until I would go research like is there a PDF or something where it says, hey, if you're thinking these are the things like a check list of things that you might want to start doing to prepare yourself for safety.

I don't know,

you know. So I don't think we have one. Um, I think by default when I handle the consultations, I end up giving every lady one depending on their circumstance because I just have it there because I've been doing this for so long and been in it.

Um, but it's something to think about of actually putting together

together. There you go. She's writing it down, people.

I am.

I love it. She's a true lawyer. I love it.

And I'm the

Listen, I've got lots of things I'm pulling. If I don't write it down on my little sticky notes and put it up.

No, I'm the same way. Like my office looks good behind me, but they don't know this is my desk in front of me, and I'm looking around going, "Oh, I got this. I got that." But

yeah, I got piles on the floor.

Listen, I know like um Leicia and I are having a good old time here and and I just want to let the listener know that is in pain right now. You're not alone. I know it's hard. I've seen it. I've seen a lot of trauma in my life.

Leysa has gone through it as well. Um, doesn't mean that you have failed and that your emotions are wrong. Even if you're angry at God or you feel so lonely, you're not. So, list pick do one thing. Do the one thing. Okay. It's the tiniest little thing you can do by going to one of the websites

or go to the stay marriage because I think there's resources on there too.

Yeah, absolutely. And um

and you go to the website, all the books, there's lots of resources.

Yeah. And start there to figure those things out for yourself. Okay. And get the help because you know like we could sit and just be in fear, you know, the fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And many that I know are frozen or fawning like, you know, learn what that means.

There are things to empower you. Um, and remember that the Lord is not a Lord of confusion or hate or, you know, like it is it's very confusing. I know it is for those that that are coming out or have been raised in a c certain culture or high control group.

Um, and so it's just finding your community a little. And not all churches are bad.

No, absolutely not. We We are the church. That's how it's supposed to be. We are the church. We are supposed to encourage and love one another and build each other up in the faith. Church is not a building. And I guarantee you when we stand before God, he's not going to say, "What religion were you?

Where did you go to church?" No, he's going to say, "What did you do with my son, Jesus Christ? What did you do with the gifts and talents I gave you?" He's not going to care what building you went into. He's just not.

I just don't believe that.

I don't either.

That's not what I read.

No. And remember, that's all like all those bill to me. It's more of like, "What did you do with the trees?" No, I'm just kidding. I I mean, I'm a nature girl. That's how I worship the Lord is through nature. So,

I would I would also say maybe the first place you need to to start is do something for yourself.

Maybe it's going for a walk on the beach or taking a bubble bath or calling a friend that you haven't talked to or haven't been allowed to talk to. Maybe that first step before you can even gather information and and you know process it and retain it is do something for you.

You know something that brings you peace, brings you joy, that calms you out of this, you know, fight orflight state and this walking on eggshells. I know I've been there. I've been there. I know how hard it is. So do one thing. commit to five minutes if that's all you know you could do or 10 or 15 walk

down you know to your mailbox

I start with two minutes I say for two minutes we're going to do breath work and they're like oh that's so easy I'm like try it

oh it's not

try it because your your brain's on and that this is where I I'm not going to even go into the science listen to the rest of the episodes and you'll learn some how the brain disregulates and stuff and how important it is

do something do something for yourself. Take one step and it is a process. It is

and you will get through it. And this is actually this is what I what I tell um you know potential clients when I do consultations. I said you have to look at this as like going through a tunnel. When you are going through a tunnel, you are in the middle.

It's the darkest, right? You if you look back, you see light, right? But that light is is a false light. It is it is abuse. It is stress. It is it is fear. It is is shame. Yeah. whatever you're dealing with, right? But if you hold on and you keep taking a step through the middle, eventually you're going to see the other side of the tunnel and you're going to see light there where there's healing and hope and joy and peace.

And you you just got to walk through that,

you know, dark side. So get a team of people to walk through you. Whether it is an attorney, a mental health professional, a friend, I suggest all, you know, all of the above, you know, get the team that's that's there to walk you through that middle.

Mhm.

And there is great things, you know, on on the other side and and in the next season

and and and write your story because to me, journaling and narrative therapy, like understanding like [clears throat]

like I tell my client, write write the letter to your in-laws or write the letter to the ex or write the letter and um do not give do not give it to them. Do [clears throat] not give it to them because it's it's the processing it out.

Okay. So, they're we're mind, body, and spirit. So, you have to do a one thing for each part of you in that too. Like the bubble bath I would think would be sematic therapy, right? The journaling or the writing or the poetry is is like getting it out of your mind.

Listening to a podcast

to gather information, you know, like it's taking the walk. It's just like you have to understand how God created us so holistically

and he loves us. He created a hundred trillion cells and all they wanted in each human I don't even know if that math is right either but honestly like the hair on our head like he he's numbered of all

okay so that means how special are you right

because he you're a vessel I'm a vessel is a vessel and we get to choose what we're going to do with this

all these cells and and the vessel and our story because that pain I I've gone through my own stuff, Lysa has gone through her stuff. There's so many people and you have your story, too. So, like start somewhere. All right, guys. Uh, all right, Licia, where can someone find you if they want to hire you?

Oh,

um, so Bru Yeah. So, I work for Bruce Law Firm.

Um, yeah. Are we going to put a like a link to that or I will. Yeah, we'll put a link to there. And I do handle the majority of the consultations, so it is a very good chance that if they do call and and make one, they're going to be talking to me.

Um,

you know, there's a good chance at that. But yeah, I mean, I work for for an incredible firm who really believes in justice and really believes in getting

women to their best life. And um,

yeah, and I just want to say one thing. You know what? If you are here listening to this, I want to commend you. You just took a step, a huge step. you actually did something just so you know like this is doing something right you're getting knowledge you're you're

you did something so bravo like great job you know um I I don't want to minimize that because that is a big step so congratulations you know you're here and and keep taking steps

little by little

exactly exactly well thank you

thank you so much

yeah and listener please do not forget to trust in the Lord guard your heart and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment,formational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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