Reclaiming Biblical Sexuality After Trauma & Purity Culture" with Dr. Carol Tanksley, M.D., D.Min.

Hello there fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to another episode of the holistic counselor podcast. It's me Diana from Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. Today's episode is going to be a different one and we're going to just go there.

We're talking about sex, shame, intimacy, healing. I'm bringing on someone who can bridge clinical insight and deep spiritual wisdom to the table. Dr. Carol Tensley is a licensed OBGYn physician, ordained minister, personal coach, speaker, author, and podcaster. She spent nearly 30 years helping people navigate the connection between their physical bodies and their spiritual wholeness.

Through her platform, Dr. Carol Ministries. She's been guiding others toward what she calls the fully alive life, especially in the areas of love, sexuality, relationships, and faith. Her latest book, Sex Expectations, I hope I said that right, expectations, invites us to take an honest look at our sexual stories, the good, the hard, and the hidden, and shows us what happens when Jesus enters those vulnerable places.

Dr. Carol is joining us from Austin, Texas, where she also goes by one of her favorite titles, Grandma Carol. Dr. Carol, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Oh, this is such a pleasure. I am excited about this conversation and even though it may seem hard, we are going to go there and I'm honored to be part of this conversation with you, Diana. I'm so glad I found someone to talk about these things because honestly this is a hard talk within the church walls and outside the church walls because I know that most people including myself learned about sex on the streets,

right? And so, you know, you have an incredible journey from OBGYn to ministry. So, what led you to start talking so openly about sex and shame and healing in the church? It didn't come easily, Diana. This was not at all the area of life that I would have ever imagined myself speaking into or helping people with.

I went into OBGYn wanting to address the, you know, the the physical needs. And I quickly learned, however, that I could deliver babies. I could do surgery. I could write prescriptions, but I couldn't heal anybody. Wow.

And a few years into my practice, as God had brought me an amazing amount of healing from my own junk, my mess, I felt drawn and a very clear message from God that I needed to bring in more direct ministry and theological aspects to who I was and what I offered to people.

So, I got my theological training and that helped bring some of these ideas together in my mind. But perhaps the single biggest thing that pushed me to start addressing this area was there was a time I found myself alone in a hotel room with a married man

about to do something I had said I would never do. Now in my particular story, God rescued me. My clothes did not come off. He left. But that rocked my world and I was pushed to deal with the lies I had come to believe, the empty places in my soul, the wounds I had accumulated.

I had to do some deep and hard work to address my own story as God would have it in my life. About a year later or so, God brought my loving husband into my life. We had a beautiful marriage. Now I'm living single again since he passed away.

But as my husband and I started to do radio programs together, this was one of the topics we started talking a little bit about. And every time we did, people called in. This was what they wanted to ask questions about. I started writing a bit.

And when I would ever put out an article about something in this area, that's what would get response. And so for the last several years, this has been the focus of what God has asked me to do. And I have been absolutely amazed at both the kinds of shame and brokenness that people even inside the church are still holding after sometimes being Christians and in the church for many years or sometimes not whether they're just uh you know curious.

And then I'm also amazed at the kinds of transformation that can happen when the topics we're addressing today are brought into the light. When people bring their shame into the light and allow themselves to be seen and known by another safe enough person and allow themselves to be seen and known by Jesus.

So it's my own story and then what I have seen in just so many people wrestling with this.

Yes. Yeah. I mean I see it too as a therapist with uh a lot of young I mean there's some men that come in um Yeah. But I work with mostly women and a for some reason at this point of my practice I have a lot of young women coming out of purity culture

and um it's hard to address that because I'm still learning. I I did not become a Christian till I was 29. I do have my own sex story, right? And um it's just I guess it is hard because many of them grew up in that church atmosphere or a high controlling atmosphere too.

Uh and it's a hard thing to balance. So why do you think churches avoid talking about sex? And what kind of damage does that silence cause in people's lives and then their marriages?

Yes, it really does. First, I think it's hard to talk about sex. uh in the culture at large and also in the church uh to put the best possible spin quotes on it. Uh a a lot of people in the church don't know what to say.

They don't know how to talk about it. Uh granted, okay, but a deep u just root level, bottom level belief I have is that if the gospel doesn't have an answer for the hardest places in our lives, and our stories, what good is it?

uh Jesus always invited people to to to go there. So you mentioned purity culture and I just want to comment on that for for a second. Also a lot of what the church has done at least in recent times has been to focus largely on behavior especially when it comes to sexuality and relationships and and so on.

The church has often put out a list of this is what you should do or this is what you shouldn't do. And you're either a good girl or a bad girl. You're either pure or you're impure. You're either holy or you're tainted. All based on behavior.

And that focus on behavior. It hasn't worked.

No.

Um sex is about a whole lot more than just biology. It's about matters of the heart. And when I look at the New Testament, Jesus cared most about matters of the heart. So the damage that this first of all not talking about it or the paradigm of making it all about behavior.

The damage that does is it gives all kinds of false beliefs to people. Um if you've met the criteria that purity culture said you're supposed to meet, okay, self-righteousness, uh feeling like you're you're better. But for many many many people um it ends up bringing so much shame because maybe I didn't live up to what purity culture said I was supposed to.

And so if I messed up then I'm I'm forever marred and and tainted. Um, another myth that this area brings to marriages is the idea that if I'm not married, I'm not a sexual being. If I am married, sex should just work. Um, it it should just happen,

be easy and what we see in the movies and all that romance and oh my goodness,

I have yet to meet somebody where that h where it was that story. You know, boy meets girl, they fall in love, they get married, have sex on their wedding night, and it's, you know, Gloria. I have yet to meet somebody where that was their story.

Right. Yeah. Exactly. Dr.

Carol, like so, so back to the purity culture because I'm going to just bring up what I've heard in the five years I've had my private practice of working with women and men and uh I don't do couples therapy just individual, but that's that's what's happened is where the men some of them and women come in with addiction to pornography and they are Christians like they're in the church and then that that guilt and shame causes so much pressure to a point where now they think they're going to hell.

Yes.

Number one. And number two, that they are now like, "Oh my goodness, like I don't understand." So then they get depressed and then they want to kill themselves.

Yeah.

So it just becomes this vicious cycle and you know, you do have people out there in some in some spaces in religious spaces that are like, "Okay, sex is for marriage. I understand. I get it." And though so it's a it's so much bigger than that.

And you're right, it's a they focus too much on the the don'ts and the behaviors that we end up having a lot of confused teenagers out there. Okay. And so when I have 19-year-olds with erectile dysfunction

Yes. and girls having u abortions, you know, just because now they got pregnant or they got there's so many there's so many layers to this because I've also had young women that come to me that got married, they waited, they it isn't what they thought.

They were scared. They, you know, it was two virgins. They're they were 18, 19 years old. Because that's something that happens I've seen inside churches where they hurry up and get married because they're horny. I'm going to just say it.

Exactly,

Dr. Carol. Like, I'm going to just say they're horny. And so, they make these rash decisions. The families are all about that, too. And the next thing you know, they're 25, 26 year olds coming to me and they're being raped in marriage.

And then the Bible darts are thrown at them. What do you say about that?

The first thing I say is it makes me angry.

Yeah. I get I get livid not at people but at the messages that evil has used to steal, kill, and destroy. Um, let me just comment on pornography for a second in our culture. I'm going to say the vast majority of young people have been sexually discipled by porn and it messes with your brain.

You mentioned teenagers with erectile dysfunction. Absolutely. And this culture impacts people whether or not you are watching porn because it gives a message across people that this is what sex is. This is what men want. This is what women want and all all the stuff.

Uh it's wrong folks. It's just plain wrong. And it does great damage. Um, and the impact then on marriage, a young woman, and I don't know that a young man can either, but especially a young woman, your whole neurological system is not going to go to don't do it to yes, do it.

You're not going to be able to flip a switch by a ring being put on your finger. uh if you have paired sex with dirty and that's the underlying message that at least some in the Christian church have given that if you don't have sex you're clean and so then now I'm married how do I immediately move from it's dirty to this is good and it becomes rape in marriage I'm glad you said that I have

women that I have worked with I am working with now who are in their 40s and 50s and they they may have a loving husband or at least a reasonably loving husband.

You know, he cares

and every time they feel pressured to sex and it it it's like it is tearing their souls apart. That's not what God intended,

right?

And and so this is just some of the damage that those messages bring.

Yeah. I mean, and then what I get frustrated with is when human beings use the word and they take it and they're like, "Your body is not your own."

I I I can I interrupt for a second?

Do it.

That that first Corinthians 7 scripture that you're referencing has been weaponized to far too many um households and it's usually women. it it's usually women that get the fallout from this. Um I think most readers of the New Testament in today's world in the 21st century miss how radically mutual and egalitarian Paul's language was when Paul wrote that women were considered property.

Now that was wrong. That is not honoring women who are made in the image of God. too. But um for Paul to say that I as a wife, my husband's body belongs to me just like my body belongs to him. Just that mutual language was radically egalitarian for Paul's day.

And here's another thing. Many people usually think of that scripture as saying, "Okay, if my body as a wife belongs to my husband, that means I am to give him sex anytime he wants." What if it's just the opposite? What if because my husband's body also belongs to me and I don't want to give him an orgasm today.

So then because his body belongs to me, I get to say whether or not he has sex. People miss that. That is just as much part of the meaning of that passage.

Um I I have a little passion here as you can tell.

No, and I'm glad you do, Dr. Carol, because listen, I mean, I don't know how you like the theology where you were raised in or what you saw. I I was raised Catholic

with um Sanoria in the background. Let's just put it that way. And so those are, you know, and I remember learning about sex like in middle school. Some of my friends were doing it in middle school and I was scared. And the only sex talk I had was in Spanish.

I'm not going to say it in Spanish, but if you get pregnant, I will kill you. That was it. And then I learned about sex because I would read uh Judy Bloom's book uh I don't know if you you remember that in the 70s.

Um are is are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. And just these books because people were talking about and I was a reader and I was I was curious. Porn was introduced to me at a very young age in elementary school, which that happens to a lot of young people, especially if you're being raised in an environment where, you know, single immigrant mom, mom was working all the time.

You had a lot of freedom. I had a lot of freedom on the streets. Let's put it that way. And so to me, the way I gathered sex were from books, from what I saw with friends. High school happened. It just scared me.

I'm just going to be honest, which there's a lot of people that are fearful. I have sometimes had to deal with uh 20 late 20 year olds that early 30 year olds, mid30s that are still virgins.

Yes.

Looking for somebody and they are scared to death about sex. they are like and that's what's keeping them from they're like frozen in that anxiety and I'm trying to gently teach them correctly with the word of God along with science in a healthy manner because they were raised in the church and they have this whole like no no no like and then and then there's men that actually want a woman and it's not about sex and then they have girls coming after them.

It's so It's so like

so many layers. So,

so someone that's been through like toxic religion and trauma and you know, where do they even begin to heal for intimacy, especially if trust is broken?

Yeah, I had a lot of trauma and toxic religion. That w those were parts of my story. I grew up in a home where we went to church from the time I was born, but there was a lot of mess, including a lot of sexual mess.

And by the time I got to be a young woman, I was deeply distressed. And so, part of coming out of my own junk was dealing with the trauma. And God brought me a great deal of healing. But when God he when God brought my husband into my life, I had fear of sex. that that was that was true for me.

I was an OB/GYN physician. I knew all the biology. I knew a lot more biology than probably 99% of people who get married knew. Uh and I was afraid. I also knew the theology because I had been studying the Bible. Um I was actually in um uh seminary at this point.

So I knew all the stuff. And yet there was a lot of anxiety and fear in my heart about getting married and having sex. And my husband w was loving and all that. So what I did and I believe this was part of God's direction to me of what to do was I soaked in I marinated in the Song of Solomon for a few months before we got pregnant.

I lost count of how many times I soaked in and read that little book in the Old Testament. And here's what that did to me is it got my neurological system to start to believe that this was good because so much of what my physical body had experienced and what I had been told was that it wasn't good.

But that book, that little book, The Song of Solomon, it is all unadulterated goodness. Intimacy is not just bodies. It's souls and hearts and its joy and its emotions. And the picture of intimacy is beautiful and full orbed in that little book. Now, there is an awful lot of bad sex in the Bible.

Really bad sex and trauma in the Bible. But here in this little book, it is all unadulterated goodness. That's what God intended. And I had to soak in that.

Um, and so what I would say in answer to your question, um, first bring your trauma into the light. And we can talk a little bit more about that. You need to talk about it. But then it's more than just information that you put into your intellectual brain to say, "Okay, this is supposed to be good.

God meant it good." Your body, your neurological system, your emotions need to start to feel it. That usually comes through people. Now, I don't mean go have sex with any anybody. I mean your system needs to start taking in first of all that intimacy can be good meaning when I am seen and known by somebody I don't automatically get hurt uh big time traumatic message to overcome for those who have experienced trauma which I believe um in some measure as Dr. an islander does.

That's that that that's most if not all of us. And so to find a safe enough person

to allow them to see you uh meaning see your heart uh take the walls down that you have erected around your soul. Um and then as far as the religious trauma, the the toxic religion, similar principles there. You may need a new god.

Now I don't mean you can choose any god that you want. I mean the internal mental picture that many of us may have acquired about when when you think of God. What's that mental image of God in your head that may be wrong.

You may need to rebuild that internal picture of God.

How would how would you suggest to do that to rebuild? Because I know what I say to my clients. I was I'm just wondering what you would say. You may need to start by just saying I am going to question everything that my internal emotional self wants to say about God and just allow yourself to start from scratch so to say so to speak.

The God that I know is patient. He never um he never berates you or condemns you for being where you are. You start where you are.

I can think of a a client that I have right now, a coaching client that that I'm working with and she spent many many many years in toxic religion and and she now happens to be in her 40s and it's an a regular thing.

Oh, you know, God is this punitive person who's just watching for me to mess up and I can't measure up, so why do I even try? Um, and it's a long process. Every now and then, she will start to sense, okay, maybe God wants me too.

Maybe he is good for me, too. And it has taken a long time to even start to get her internal right brain, so to speak, emotional self to start to believe that maybe God can be good for her, too.

Yeah. So, what would you say to these young people that have biologically? Because listen, I know the science too, right? It's just like behavioral mammals, you know, we have desires or we ovulate. I mean, there's so many layers that we're not taught in in school specifically unless you study it or in the church for sure.

Uh, you know, because it's a very cut and dry. Don't masturbate, don't do this, don't do that. Uh, you know, it's just for what, you know, and and to me, I worked with youth for a very very long time. and they're, you know, they come and they're like, I remember when I first started working with youth, a a young lady was in the youth group and she was freaking out.

I'm like, why are you freaking out? And then she starts telling me the story, but it turned out that the young boy ended up um, how do I put it in a nice manner? ended up having an orgasm on top of her clothes.

But for that whole time, she thought she was pregnant

because she was never taught sexual

Yes.

situations correctly. Do you see where I'm getting at? The she had the desire because she was, you know, she wanted to she wanted to feel, you know, liked and the that she she had a crush on the boy. I mean, it's so complicated.

And so we have all these stories and situations that happen and it's like what do you say to the young people? Because it's like if we continue it hasn't worked, it doesn't work. You know, it's just like telling a whole bunch of people, well, don't do drugs.

And they're like, why? Because I said so. Like don't have sex. Why? Because God will smite you. Like

it doesn't work.

It doesn't work. So what do you think does work? or what have you seen in your all these years of ex of your experience? Especially because you were a Dr. OBGYn. Not that I bet you did not just see cute little babies being born.

You probably had to see some harsh stuff, diseases. I mean, uh pregnancies that are weren't wanted. I mean, you and then the I can imagine what you saw as a a a doctor, you know, an OBGYn. So, tell me like how do we help now?

like you and I are passing the baton to the next generation. How can we help them?

Yeah. Um, two little brief stories come to mind. One, I remember a young lady who I think she was like 19. Um, and I saw her as an OB/GYN. This was a number of years ago and she came in uh with herpes and she was once I had the hard talk with her.

Sadly, young lady, you know, this is the reality. I I have to be honest with you. She was absolutely livid and devastated and it totally rocked her world. I don't think anybody had had adequate conversations with her to say these are the risks.

This this is part of the package that you need to I mean this is real life as hard as it is. So, if you make this choice, this is a potential risk. I think of another young lady um who is in a dating relationship right now.

She is a Christian, her boyfriend is a Christian, and they are wrestling with what are they going to choose to do about their sexual drive together in this season and follow Jesus. They do not want it to be a checklist of behaviors because they know that doesn't work.

And they've seen some of their friends just get really tied up in knots when it's a a a checklist of stuff. And so they are wrestling with what are our values? And that's what I encourage them to talk about together. And what you and I um Diana, I believe this is where we need to help people start thinking what is important to you and can we help you think through what some of those values might be that you want to become more aware of.

Have those kinds of conversations as well as this is what sex means folks and in our world these are the risks. if you if you choose to do that. Not having shame-based conversations, but having conversations that help young people feel in their being that I can talk about this.

That may be one of the hardest things. Um, and so because I can't talk about it, I go to porn to find out or I mess around with my boyfriend or girlfriend to find out because my friends are doing it. So, I go to places that aren't healthy to find out things I'm legitimately curious about, but then I also have all these feelings that I don't know what to do with.

So, who is helping these young people have a place to put their feelings into words to start to realize, I'm not weird or bad for feeling horny, for wanting to be connected to my my boyfriend, girlfriend, but how to navigate that. One paradigm I heard that I thought was really helpful is um just talking through don't let your physical intimacy get ahead of your emotional intimacy

of you you you know this person. Once you know this person are they able to be trusted and then as you start walking through those things then touch happens after that. Of course, that's hard when a young person's bodies are full of hormones and sex drive and all, but we need to start having these conversations early.

Yeah. How would you go about that? Because I I know in my house I the conversations were age appropriate and I was so honest about things because of what I do for a living and how just I was raised. I didn't want to raise my kids hidden.

I want them anything that happened to come and sit down and talk about it. which kind of shocked some of their friends because they're like you talk to your mom about that and they're like yeah like it was like a no big deal.

So to me it was always age appropriate like like you said like the brochures that I would get from the OBGYn or as a therapist like here are all the choices you know here are all the choices. I wanted to empower them to give them good critical thinking skills.

I also want them to let them know that no matter what choice they made that's between them, creator to in God and whoever it is, as long as you're being respectful, I I can't be there. I'm not going to sit there and shame and guilt you and say like, you know, you don't do that because I'm not going to force my thought process or the way I my theology, right?

I will share that with you. You see where I stand. But how do we do that for for others or maybe the parents like that are listening right now like okay oh no okay I want to do right by my kid. What what advice would you give a parent right now that's listening that wants to raise their kids in a healthy sexual mindset?

Yeah. I think it has to start much younger than any parent thinks it needs to start.

Especially nowadays.

Yes. It starts when your child is a baby. When you give a bath to a baby girl or a baby boy and you you you make their genitals all their parts just part of the body and you can start to talk about this is how God made you.

Isn't that cool? Um of course I am talking as a person of Christian faith and you just start making the language and the conversations normal,

right?

Um you make it okay to ask questions about everything in life. You don't shame a child for asking a um a a question about okay dirty diaper or you know the I mean this is just this is life and in our family we can talk about these things.

Then when a child gets, you know, three, four, six, and they start to be aware of friends and start talking about friends, you can start to talk about, oh, you know, um, Jonathan is a boy or, you know, um, Samantha is a girl.

How how do you know what's different? You know, what do you notice that you like? And you just start helping them think about character, about characteristics, about what's important. You start talking about values. And then at, in my opinion, at least by the time you get to school, by the time you start sending your kids to school, you need to start having conversations about good pictures, bad pictures.

Um, and when you feel icky, what do you do?

Mhm. Um, and don't make them feel bad for feeling themselves, for example, or if they do tell you something that may not have anything to do with sexuality, but it may be something that you need to bring some correction that um, you don't shame them.

You may need to correct. And I believe that is uh part of the purpose of parents. But you do it in a way to help them

start to take ownership of their own choices and their own agency

so that by the time they get to the tween years or the teen years and they start to feel sexual drives in their body, they have learned first of all that my body, God made it to be good. and that when I feel things or wonder about things, I can talk about them.

And this is the safe place to talk about them, God willing, that is with your parents

uh to to make that

or a trusted caregiver because I do work with a lot of blended families or families from foster care and stuff like that. So, it's a, you know, a trusted caregiver. And when I say trusted, someone that's not going to weaponize it or

Yes.

or uh hurt you with it. It's just someone you can easily speak with that's going to have the your best interest.

Yeah. And what I want to what I want to say to parents too is um your spidey sense is worth something. Your gut is worth something. If you just have a feeling that something's going on with your with your kid, um it doesn't mean you have to dump on your kid, but get curious.

Start asking questions. If your child says a word um that you would rather they not say, don't get angry at them for using that word. Ask, "What do you think that word means? Where did you hear that?" Those kinds of things.

Yeah, Dr.

Carol, I'm just thinking about the a time when one of my kids came home and I think it was in sixth grade and my husband wasn't raised that way. he's a little bit older than me and the way he was raised and I was raised like on the streets in a way and so I had to learn and plus I'm a therapist so I learned a lot of communication skills and he came and he asked and

I don't know if if my editor is going to bleep this out or not I'm just going to be raw and he was just like mom what's head someone said that someone else gave each other and I'm like and he's in sixth grade and I'm like okay we're going to have this conversation now so now I knew he was ready to have the conversation honestly I didn't shame him I didn't say that's something God says not

to do.

I didn't um you know and my husband just sat back and watched because he's just like oh how are you going to handle that one honey? But but to me it is about that curiosity like you just said Dr. It's so important for any caregiver with children and also like you said good and bad bad pictures and

because I guess for what I do and how much I've worked with trauma especially those that have been in with sexual trauma where you know the father is the one doing something or stepfather or grandfather or brother I mean it's I could keep going on and on um or in within the marriage like teaching the kids and to me sometimes Like my with my grandkids, I will say, you know, no one's allowed to touch you from your neck to your knees.

Nobody. Well, but about mommy. I'm like, well, we're going to discuss that with mommy like or with daddy because it's just like the boundaries like you have every right, you know, you have every right to protect yourself, too. Like, so no one's, you know, and if you feel weird, you tell me right away,

right? It's that having that open communication constantly. And there was a book that I used that was called Not Everybody's Nice back when the when I was a preschool teacher. And I know it's like it's a it's a hard place, Dr. Carol, because it's like we don't want to steal their innocence, but at the same time, we don't want them to be so vulnerable and so um what's the word I'm trying to look for?

No.

You don't you don't you don't want them to become a victim because they didn't, you know, they they they didn't know. Um, let me say too that as a parent, you're not going to do this perfectly, right?

You are going to mess up and that's okay.

Yes.

So, if you recognize that you messed up in a moment, go back and apologize to your kids.

Um, your children seeing you being honest that you are a human too.

Yeah.

Um, and that you are willing to do the work of repairing that broken moment in the relationship. um that means a whole lot more than frankly specific words that you say.

Yeah. So, do you can you think of any resources or any other things that have helped you with your families that you work with or the women that you work with or whoever you're coaching and and stuff that that comes to mind? Because to me, I think the the more we put out there for them to pick up, I'll put it in the show notes, of course, your book and your website, but is there anything that you can think of at this moment?

There's two that come to mind uh in this particular area for parents and kids.

One is sex ed reclaimed a um a Christian sex educator who talks in age appropriate ways about the details of our bodies and sexuality and whatever.

And then another one is the sex talk. I I believe it's the sextalk.com if I can remember right. And that is a series of um video lessons specifically for parents or you know uh those who are caring for or or or teaching young people

to basically be equipped to have a 10-yearong sex talk. So this doesn't start when they're 15 years old. It needs to start at the latest by elementary school. Uh perhaps even earlier and then this is a thousand or 10,000 mini conversations MI and I conversations over at least a decade.

And it helps equip um parents and leaders to to do that and and they've got some amazing experts as part of that uh as part of that resource.

Oh my goodness. Thank you for that. like I I'm going to I I've never heard of that. So, I'm going to take it and give it to all four of my kids cuz all my my grandkids are little. So, you know, so let's go into a little harder area if you don't mind.

Um

you know, women, especially us women, and I know back in the day when I think about before I met my husband, you know, I wasn't a virgin. I've had partners and and so did he. He was married before me and had the three kids because my three older are my bonus children.

And so, you know, like we we get all these mixed messages. Be pure, be sexy, be silent, be this, be that, be trad or not, or be like this. So, how how can we like I don't know reclaim the se our sexuality without shame?

How can we do that?

Yeah. Um, first thing to say is it's a process. Uh, we know neurobiologically that brains can change even as adults. Um, I'm now I I guess you'd call me a senior citizen because I just got my Medicare card. Um, but my brain can still change and and we know neurobiologically that that can happen, but it isn't fast.

It is a what many of us would feel is a much slower process than you might like. So first of all to normalize a bit that it's not quick or easy. Um I think the biggest single step in dealing with shame is to bring it into the light.

Right?

When we hide shame grows. Um, just like light disinfects bacteria, they actually use light in hospitals to sanitize in in certain ways. Uh, bringing our stuff, our junk into the light begins to disinfect it.

I mentioned briefly, find a safe enough person. I think a skilled, knowledgeable, and in my opinion, Christian counselor can be a wonderful place to do that.

It might be a godly friend who's just a few steps farther along in life than you. I in working with people often find that this tends to be the hardest step that they wrestle with is I don't want to talk to anybody. It may have been that you tried to talk to somebody or maybe did and it came back to bite you.

Uh maybe they used it against you or shamed you even more or twisted it and made it all about them. Not everybody is worthy of sharing your story, but there is somebody who is safe enough. That is what we do at our in-person intensives.

For about the last year and a half, we've been holding these small groups where a a group of women come uh for three or four days. And every time I hear something like, "I don't think I've ever said this to anybody before."

Just bringing things into the light is an incredible step in starting to disinfect the shame.

Yeah.

So, I think that is first the biggest single step. and then identifying the bad stuff that you want to get rid of. We all have mixed messages, twistedness or lies that we have chosen to believe, um things that we have held on to.

There are some bad things to get out that you make an intentional choice to get out of your life. And what are you going to choose to take in?

Sometimes people spend all their time getting rid of the bad stuff, but then there's just emptiness inside. You also need to intentionally take in the good stuff. A question I will often ask people is what makes you feel fully alive.

Uh what are the moments when it has just been wonderful? You know, when time stopped and you could stay there forever and you were just expanded and uh beautiful. Okay, that that's subjective and that's not the only criteria by which to judge goodness, but it's a useful question to ask.

I believe beauty in all its forms is something we need to choose to take in. Christian psychiatrist Dr. Kurt Thompson talks about putting yourself in the path of oncoming beauty.

Um, music, art, nature nourishes your soul.

Yes. And then there's something about being around other people. You can't do this with 300 or 3,000. Um, but with one, with five, uh, just a few people that you intentionally nurture connections with. Uh, it's messy. It's not necessarily as quick as anybody would like, but you practice.

Yeah. You practice taking the walls down and letting the other person see you. And then the idea is that it's mutual. They do the same. You offer the same to them and they offer the same to you. And that's part of what gets your system to start to believe that maybe intimacy can be okay.

Maybe it doesn't have to be only about my shame. Your shame can start to be healed. the facts of your story don't change, but it becomes a healed scar rather than an open bleeding infected wound.

Right?

And a big part of that is with other people. And then I as a person of Christian faith really do believe that inviting Jesus into those places is a I don't believe there's anything that can bring healing to the degree that that does.

So how do you suggest for them to do that? inviting Jesus into this place, especially to those like that might be listening that are either they might be curious or they actually are hurt and they and that's the thing what I do with a lot of my clients is I'm trying to, you know, they're they're saying they're deconstructing and I'm like, well, I think what you're doing is disentangling your faith from your trauma.

Yes.

Right. And so, how do we encourage him to bring Jesus into these places?

because I I haven't even touched uh what if a person was sexually abused as a child or you know we touched a little on the rape in marriage but it's like there's some people that are listening out there that have been brutalized through sex human you know sexually traffked or um and they're trying or they were in pornography as as in porn actress or actor I mean so I'm not putting this all on the on women but it's just like how do we help them healed because I do know it's Jesus Christ.

I get it. You get it. But when someone hears the word Jesus, sometimes it causes more pain because of their assumptions of the the toxic religious situation or what do you say?

Let me also acknowledge Diana that there are some who have been sexually harmed in church. So it it may be uh you know child child abuse but then um sexual harassment or rape or just objectification with church leaders.

Yes.

Um and I I want to acknowledge that. I also want to say that when God talk gets mixed up with trauma, it's painful and a hard path of disentangling. That was part of my story. I had to do hard work to disentangle the God talk from the trauma.

Um, one of the places that I think can help is to imagine writing a letter. Imagine if Jesus just take for a moment imagining Jesus is real and imagine you could say something to him. What would that be? Imagine writing a letter. Uh whatever emotions, you know, anger, fear, why didn't you, why can't uh you know, all the stuff.

Yes.

Um it's it's okay. And let me just say that the God I know can handle it.

That's right.

Um he he he he won't get mad. Um, but I think that can be a helpful step for some people to move toward expressing the stuff, expecting that. I mean, you know, intellectually, okay, if God is real, he knows, but just point it to him, say it to him.

It it it's okay. It's okay. Um, I also believe that God is patient. And often for your brain to heal and disentangle the God stuff and find a faith that that works, that's true. Um, it takes another person. Our internal mental maps don't go away just by saying, "Okay, that's not true."

We need an experience. We need an emotionally rot, if I can use a double-edged word, an emotionally pregnant experience

to let our souls become different and those new neural pathways in our brain become solidified enough that we can start strengthening those. And almost always that requires another person, a safe enough person that can hear you and not shut you down,

right?

That in my Christian faith, I would say can be God with skin on to you.

Yeah. No, I I I agree. And that's to me that's why I'm always encouraging.

I'm trying to break the stigma. like before we press record I'm like I'm trying to break the stigma in the churches and in the minority communities right but honestly in everybody's community because there is still a stigma when you say mental illness and that's why I'm always talking about brain health because that is the only organ that we really you know that's where a lot of this stuff comes anxiety depression everything that's in the in my

field and it's just like no this is part of the brain but you're holistic so it's like you know it could be stored trauma in the cells and now here we are.

So it's understanding how God fearfully and wonderfully made you

and so I want to know a little more about your retreat that you said or the intensive. Can anybody attend that? Like if they fly in because you said it was in person. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Oh, thank you. Yes, they can. We just finished one not long ago and people came um on the east coast from Boston, Massachusetts and on the west coast from Southern California and and and in between. So um we do these uh in central Texas here and yes people can come from anywhere and it's um three and a half four days

and it's a safe beautiful physical space and we start with just creating an environment where okay this is what we're dealing with and you can tell your story and we're going to be witnesses to you of your story in a safe place.

Um there's a bit of teaching that I do, but most of it is sensory experiences. We bring Jesus into it. Not in a Bible study type of way. But what would it feel like if you met Jesus today? We we use some scripture, but in a very in in in a very embodied way.

And we use physical activities and sensory moments where it gets out of your logical left brain and it gets into your emotional right brain and starts to let you experience. This is what healthy connection with a few others and healthy connection with Jesus.

Maybe this could actually be.

And I have been amazed at the changes in the faces between when people come all anxious and worried. Um so many of them just I don't know if I really want to be here and then by the end they don't want to leave.

Yeah.

You know that the the freedom and joy and they use all kinds of words to describe you know what the experience has been like for them. But yes, it's a beautiful thing.

So do you do this often? Is it like once a year? I mean, how if somebody's listening right now and says, you know, I want to check it out. How how did they they go on your website?

Okay.

Yes, you can find the link on our homepage. I'll also make sure you have it if you want to put that specific one in the show notes, but we do it several times a year.

Okay.

So, as we're recording right now, we have another one in August and then we have another one scheduled in October. Uh so, we do it se several times a year. Yes.

Okay, good. So, I'll put that in the show notes, too. And what it sounds like, what I love about what I'm hearing, it's it's um neuroplasticity mixed with sematic therapy

because to me people like you keep saying like you got to get it out of that right side of the brain. It's because we're holistic and sometimes what happens, you know, like I tell people when they come to me, talk therapy, CBT is going to only do two so much depending on what the situation is.

But I'm going to have to get you to understand you might have a team. You might need to go get a massage somewhere. You might need to go to EMDR. You might need to go to something like what what Dr. Carol is talking about where it's like a safe place because you're hitting all of it.

You're hitting theology, biology, and psychology all together in one spot, which I love. And Dr. Carol is an actual MD. So, she gets the left and the right brain. It's not just one cuz sometimes I'm a little wary about like some of these I hate to say it but like these places where women will go and it's a person that does not understand completely the science of things and it becomes like an I don't know it becomes a little cultish in my brain.

Yes, agreed. I fully agree with you Diana and and I get nervous about those things too. It's not that everyone that experiences something like that. It it may be quotes unhelpful or unhealthy or ungod, but it it it makes me it makes me concerned.

Yeah. Yeah. So, what I'm hearing is something that's that's um Yeah. Because you understand you you actually understand because you've done you're a doctor.

So, you know, and you had to work with people that that from all walks of life because of being a doctor. So, I love that. So anyway, before we wrap up, Dr. Carol, because I cannot believe this hour has gone this fast. I I feel like I could talk to you for another hour because I'm like I have a whole list of other things and people are going, "You didn't ask her about this and that."

I'm like, "Well, then I'm going to have to have you back if if you're willing to come back." But uh is there anything you would like to say to the audience before we say goodbye?

Well, first of all, this has been delightful and um maybe we talk about doing it again. That would that would be great. But what would I want somebody to leave with?

I think what I would say is bring it into the light. Tell somebody and tell Jesus.

It's hard.

Yeah.

But it's okay. Um, imagine who in your world might be safe or reach out for a counselor that's knowledgeable who might be safe and take the step to tell somebody and then tell Jesus.

He can handle it.

Yes, he can. He definitely is. I mean, he's done a number on my life and I'm so grateful for him. You know, start with the word like his word. You know, the letters in red always mean something, right? Dr. Carol, thank you so much for joining me.

And listener, please do not forget to trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor Podcast is for entertainment,formational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified mental health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The views expressed on this podcast are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of any professional organizations with which I am affiliated.

Call your doctor, 911, or 988 immediately if you have a medical emergency. The Holistic Counselor podcast does not recommend or endorse any specific tests, physicians products, procedures, opinions, or other information that may be mentioned on the podcast. Reliance on any information provided by the holistic counselor podcast, guests appearing on the podcast at the invitation of the holistic counselor podcast or other listeners to the podcast is solely at your own risk.

Confidentiality notice. If you engage with the holistic counselor podcast by commenting or posting and are a client, please be aware that you may be revealing information that could compromise your confidentiality. Please remember that disclosing your identity or personal details can be linked to your clinical material.

As a therapist, I am bound by confidentiality and will not respond to any disclosures of this type on this podcast. I am committed to upholding the ethics and confidentiality of the therapeutic relationship which extends to all forms of communication in accordance with the laws and professional guidelines that govern mental health professionals.

I want you to know that your privacy is of utmost importance and you are responsible for protecting it when interacting on this platform or any other public forum. Thank you.