Somatic Healing & Expressive Arts Therapy for Trauma Recovery

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor Podcast. I'm your host Diana, licensed mental health counselor, integrative practitioner, and founder of Through the Valley Therapy, and Transformed Mind Consulting and Coaching. Before we dive in, I just want to pause and thank you.

This is actually the 86th episode, and each one takes me about four to five hours from start to finish because I want to bring you conversations that line up with the mission and vision of this show. I produced this podcast by myself and I thank God for Dorian Duff who has been my editor and publisher since episode 18.

His support has been such a gift in helping me keep this going strong. Now, I get a lot of emails from people who want to be on this podcast. And while I'm honored by that, I take time to carefully vet who I bring on because I want to keep this space true to its purpose, breaking stigma, fostering healing, and creating a place where faith, science, and holistic wellness meet.

I don't have sponsors yet, though one day I'd welcome a sponsor that truly lines up with this mission. For now, I do this because I want to offer encouragement and free tools for healing. What you choose to do with those tools is up to you, but my hope is that something shared here helps you take your next step.

And if this podcast encourages you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend or please, please, please leave a review. That's how more people discover these conversations. And sometimes that's exactly what someone needs to hear. Now, let me introduce today's guest.

Kathy Williams is joining us all the way from Australia, which I have to say, I'm absolutely love that accent. Honestly, I love all accents because they remind us that people come from all kinds of places and spaces, each with their own unique and beautiful stories.

Kathy is the founder of Intuitive Self and she's a trailblazer in bodybased healing and expressive arts therapy. She holds a master's in social science with training in sematic movement and expressive arts therapies for more than 16 years. She's worked in community development around the world in places like Nepal, Papa New Guinea, and I can't say that last country.

Banut ban ban

banuatu.

Bananuatu. Vanuatu. She's also a facilitator, trainer, and award-winning author. Her book, Body Wisdom: A Guide to Connecting with Your Intuitive Self, weaves together story, story, creative practices, and compassionate guidance to invite readers into that same reconnection. So, if you've ever felt stuck in your head, burned out, or out of touch with your body, I think this conversation will speak right to you.

Well, I hope it does. Kathy, thank you so much for waking up to be here cuz we had to figure out a time that it will work for both of us. So, thank you so much for being here, Kathy. Oh, thank you for being so flexible with the timing.

It's so beautiful to be here and I'm so touched by the research that you've done to get to know me. I feel really seen. Good. Yeah. Well, like I said, I bet out everybody that comes on here. I just don't, you know, because there's people Everyone has intentions and sometimes people are selfish intentions and other people aren't or they just don't know or they just don't line up and you know it's just how it is in life with human beings, right?

And so, but when I read about you and I saw because there was a list that was sent to me, a list and I and I went through every single one of them and then I'm like, man, Kathy, I I really like her vibe, everything about her, just her story.

Uh, and I do. I know it sounds stalkerish. But but honestly, it's like

know each other. It's good.

Yeah. All across the globe. I mean, this is amazing to I mean, I when I think about it, it overwhelms me that I'm going to cry because it's just think about it. Like something that beautifully connects us from around the world, but it's also something that is being utilized to hurt people as well.

So, it's like we get to choose how we use the things that are coming to us. Anyway, let let's talk about you. I want to know about you, Kathy. Like, your journey has taken you from international community work to movement and expressive arts therapy.

So, what's your personal why? Why did you start doing this? I love inquiries about why. Like I feel like it's something that especially in this field and I've you know I've taken many different pathways and detours and always moved with what has emotional charge for me.

That's my indicator of ooh ooh I need to go there. That's my intuition speaking to me. Oh that's I feel something within me. I need to go towards that. whether that's a country or a project or a particular job and coming back to my why has been really essential for remembering what I'm doing, what I'm about, and how I can continue to really intentionally live my values.

So I think what it boils down to is connection for me and that connection is vast. It is connecting to others, connecting to the land, connecting to cultures and connecting back to myself and back to my body and my heart. I was studying a um bachelor of arts in media and communications originally and I had this idea that I wanted to be like a journalist.

I wanted to be a foreign correspondent because I was so curious about people's stories, right? And in one of the classes, one of the media classes, I did my assignment on a documentary that was called Born into Brothel.

Wow. I believe it was a female female director. Um, and she went into five houses of children that were born into Brussels in Kolkata and told their story over I think it was like a 6 or 12 month period.

It was a very long time ago that I watched this, so there might be some discrepancies. [clears throat] But when I watched this documentary, I'm not sure if her intention was to, you know, tell the story of these children with the hope that maybe they would have a different pathway ahead of them if they got education or got access to other resources and other possibilities.

But what we ended up seeing was that, you know, the cycle of pover poverty is so embedded that they had a similar outcome to their to their mothers in what was what was ahead of them for their life. And there was something about that documentary that really stuck with me.

And I felt that charge. I felt that charge and that drive to, ooh, I don't want to just be reporting on these stories. I want to be on the ground with people and connecting with people. And so that's when I dived into wanting to know more about how I could get into working in the community development field

and in particular in you know in in third world countries.

Yeah.

And developing communities. And I've been very lucky to explore that for many years. Um in my 20s I worked in a variety of different communities for capacity building grassroots projects and I absolutely loved my experience of that but also I I started to question you know what's my role in in this in this work and as a foreigner really and what was I doing?

What kind of impact did I have? You know, in in some areas, you know, for example, in in human trafficking, there's always going to be a demand. So, there's always going to be a supply. So, I was doing lots of projects and I got to the point where I felt quite jaded in the industry, in the field,

I can imagine.

And I I came back to Melbourne. I went back to my mom's place. I had like some comfort food, some comfort Australian food,

and just really started to question what my role is in in this place. And I knew that I wanted to work with people. And I knew that deep connection was was the through line and was that point for me. Mhm.

Um, but I didn't know what that looked like anymore.

Yeah.

And that's when I discovered movement and creative arts therapy. I went to a women's workshop where the facilitator had just come back from her talpa training um with Anna and Daria Halpran who are pioneers in California of this work and Anna Halpran in particular you know she's really well known she's since passed but she's a pioneer of embodiment and how she used creativity and performance and how that was the the avenue for connection, connection between races, connection between communities.

And she developed this work, this body of work that is now a training for people to do where they selfexplore their connection to their body and their heart and therefore to each other creatively.

Wow.

So I was introduced to this work through a workshop. It was like a 2-hour workshop

in my local hometown and

from California.

She had just done the training in California and come back and was fresh off the training.

Yeah.

Wanted to offer this work. So

it was very different to

any traditional women's circle space where you you know you have your talking stick and you and you share. It was very embodied. It was very we no words need to be said. How do you feel right now? Use this space to express the story in your body.

Yeah. And the story in my body at the time was a feeling of confusion and helplessness in what my path forward was going to be. And I laughed it up. I loved it. I loved shaking my body and and moving what I what I actually couldn't put into words, but it came out through through the dance essentially.

And I went up to her afterwards and I was like, "What is this? I need to know." So that um that was back in 2012. uh and that set me on my path for seeking out teachers and mentors and any training that I could find on sematic movement therapy on expressive art therapy.

And it's that beautiful thing that when you are a student of this work, you are then using all of these beautiful healing modalities on your healing journey. And I got to experience the benefit of that. And I was like, this is it. This is how I can combine my love of people and community work with these healing modalities.

And that's what I've been doing ever since.

So, let's talk about these modalities because you didn't name somebody Hal Halprin. Did you say the name of uh

Anna Halprin?

Anna Halprin. And so I want to know more because honestly because now after I hang up with you, I'm of course I'm going to go start researching these things because that's not my modality. This is why I love having conversations with humans that experience healings in different ways because our world is so big and and we have to have this understanding.

I do know what somatic healing is. is like I you know tapping I've had another practitioner come on where she does it with breath and movement and but I want to know um like when you say creative and danced you said dance correct

like is it movement where you just freely are listening to music is someone guiding you because I've done art like from art for healing which I think started in California some a practitioner and I would take the classes especially during COVID and it was pretty Cool.

Like I even had very logical leftbrain people say, "Oh, this is ridiculous." And after two and a half hours of being guided through the classical music and the art and the words, the emotions at the end, they were like, "Wow, this was really good."

So I want to Yeah.

Well, of course, because people forget, you know, you have different personalities. You have the mind, the body, the spirit. We're holistic humans and we forget that. Especially for us that live in first world countries, right? We forget that there's traditions out there that like in the evenings near um say a you know a fire back in the days, right?

The natives and stuff, what would they do? They would tell stories and they would jump up and down and dance and move and and the lights. I mean, so there's so much science is catching up now, but it's also understanding like how did we lose ourselves and get so disassociated, right?

I mean,

when you were just telling me about your experience of watching that documentary, which um you named it, so I'm going to see if I could find a link to it so people can watch it. You know, it's it's like trying to figure out that vicarious trauma.

That's what you you know,

wasn't it like partially like you you were trying to do these things, trying to figure out and and and this is something what I see a lot with the 25 and 35 year olds that I work with here in Florida is that is that they're so like

that overwhelming feeling and that and that and they're listen they're not meant to listen and watch things 24/7 like they're doing now. So that's why the anxiety and the depression and the disassociation and the vicarious trauma and the world's ending feeling and all this stuff and they don't know how to connect.

So tell me more. I want to know more about what you were talking about earlier of the create like maybe we you could explain it a little more of the what the how. Maybe if there's the science behind it of like the connection and what do you mean by that?

Because people that are going to be listening to this, they're going to be like, "Oh, this is woo woo." But I have to get them to understand these are studied things that have been researched and seen that it's worked just like a lot of different modalities like EMDR or um brain spotting.

So please the floor is yours. So sematic movement therapy is a framework where we recognize that the body is a resource. So the body is not only a doorway to the present moment and to understanding [clears throat] our lived experience and our internal states.

But it is the understanding that our bodies carry all of our experiences, good, bad, traumatic, joyful, and that our bodies can store emotional experiences. As a sematic movement therapist, the body is not only something that we track in our assessment, but the body is what we use for our techniques and intervention.

So, it's different to traditional talk therapy in that we do sematic check-ins. The processes that I will guide people through is to support them to be more embodied to remember that they are in a body particular particularly as you said in our western society where the mind is given you know it's on this pedestal.

It is at the forefront. We live in a hustle culture where we're you know everyone is is doing doing doing rather than being. And that's not to say that the mind is bad, but instead in this framework, it is advocating that the body, heart, and mind and spirit are all aligned, as you said, holistically and working with that and nurturing those relationships.

So my approach is trauma-informed and client- centered. So, what that means is that the people that I work with, they have full agency. Everything, whether it's a one-on-one session or in a public group workshop, all of my guidance, all of my prompts and inquiries, they're invitational.

So, the client sets the pace. [snorts] It's usually a theme or topic that is current for them. [snorts] So, even though they might have said on their intake form, for example, oh you know, I want to work with A, B, and C. It's actually however they show up and turn up that day.

What is most present in their body? And using the body as an inquiry, where is that tension? What is the emotion that's present? How does changing the body and changing movements change the psyche and how we feel? We can all understand that when we're feeling a particular emotional state, one that might be uncomfortable, when you physically move, and that doesn't have to be something dramatic, that can be stretching.

That can be going for a walk, our emotional state does change. And so, it's using the body to transform and transmute those emotions and not bypassing how we might be feeling. Yeah. So, how how would you say you start with someone that is like, I am so disassociated at at this time of my life or I don't feel anything.

I'm numb. And they're coming to you. What is, you know, someone that or let's start with that, someone that might not feel anything. How would you start with a client like that or what are some kind of tools that you know that you've been trained in to help somebody like that?

And then we'll go to the opposite. Someone that their brain is going 1,1 miles per hour into predictive productivity mode and they can't slow down because those are the two opposites of that I see that people could get themselves stuck in. So, how would you do the first one where if they come in and they're like, uh, I haven't I'm numb.

I don't I don't even know what you're talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's actually so common because I think that we live in a society that actually encourages us to numb and distract ourselves and disassociate. [snorts] I also have my own lived experience of doing this growing up in a western society and I'm very familiar with it.

I [snorts] the way that I begin working with people who are experiencing this is to really gently start with the breath. The breath as an entry point. So, the way that I've been taught, and this was by my mentor, Amber Gray, who is a specialist in working with um torture survivors in particular, so look her up as well.

Amazing. Um, she taught me never to change anyone's breathing intentionally, but simply bringing their awareness to their breath. Even when you say breath, like I'm sure everyone now just really [snorts] took a breath because we become aware of it.

Oh, after 2020, hello. What was that all about? That was losing breath. That was losing a lot. But you Yeah,

you're right on. You're right on. Even the I do breath work too and I' I've studied it like biblically, you know. Yes. That's the first thing that if you know the Bible and understand that that's what God put into a human breath

and then we think it's woowoo or new age. Come on. Oh, sorry. I get all

come on. It is our connection to the life force source, right?

Yes. The energy. Yes.

So, I really Yeah. I invite them to bring their attention to their breath and remind them, you know, it's it's really important to resource clients um when they first come. And so the breath is I encourage people to see the breath as an anchor point as an as a doorway to the present moment and to simply become aware of their breathing to notice the pace and quality of their breath to notice any sensations in their body.

And I feel like it's a really gentle way to start to acknowledge that they have a body,

that they're in a body. And from this point of the breath, then being able to move out and noticing their connection with their body on the chair, on the sofa, on the floor. Noticing those connection points, those contact points, feeling their weight of their body, and really presencing their body in this present moment in this room.

And from that point, depending on what feedback I'm getting from their body and how they're how they are in that process,

I would then move on to either a body scan or a body map.

What do you mean by that?

So, different people have different learning styles. So, I like to be really inclusive of that. Maybe some are more auditory, some are more visual, kinesesthetic. And so a body scan is again bringing their attention to their whole body. So we often start at the crown of their head and I will start to name different body parts as we go down.

Wow.

To the feet. And if they are more kinesthetic, I encourage them to even bring their hands to these different body parts. So again, they have agency of what way they hold themselves, what way they touch themselves, if it's a light touch, if it's a stronger hold, if they want to bring in any movement with that.

So maybe some some rubbing, some padding, some brushing. M

and in that way they're almost waking up and bringing their attention to these parts of their body that if they're rushing during their day or if they are as we said numb or disconnected even if it's just a moment of consideration that oh there's my shoulder ah there's my elbow and just saying hello to the different parts of the body the body that carries us through our Okay.

And if they are disconnected or if they have numbed particular emotional states that they're able to start in this really gentle way that they are controlling. They're in control of the pace and the way that they engage with themselves here. they can start to feel.

And then I just inquire about what sensations they might be feeling. There might be a tingling, for example. They might feel the warmth or the texture of their clothing. And then what I love to do, and this is when I can start bringing in some of the expressive art therapy pieces, is on a piece of paper, and I often have, you know, colored pieces of paper and different pencils and pastels and textures, so there's a variety of choice,

is I get them to choose a colored paper and then Draw out like a gingerbread person shape and on that image of a body, note down in different colors and lines and shapes anything that they felt in that process onto the paper. So, it's a visual representation of those sensations and feelings.

And from that point we can then debrief and discuss what might be there, what might be alive for them,

right?

And of course, you know, they might be like, "Oh, that was that was really difficult. I was challenged with this. Oh, the only thing that I noticed was such and such." And it is this inquiry point of the body is giving us this feedback.

What's there? What's there that we can work with?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I love that. So, okay. So, the breath and then you have other tools and so the arts come in with and I love that because they get to pick what they want. Like a color is a representation for them, I'm sure.

Right.

Yes. And the other important part with that is that my role as a therapist and the facilitator is never to interpret my, you know, what what purple means for me on that day is very different to what purple might mean for them.

So though that's where we can inquire Yeah. like oh you know was there something that drew you to that color? Does that color represent a certain feeling or emotion?

Yeah.

For example. And it's getting them to make meaning of of their experience as well. And it could be something that in the moment they're like, "Oh, no, you know, I just I just like that color." Or it could be something that, you know, if every session you're doing a body map, for example, and you see the changes, like, "Oh, you might see the changes, but you also might see the patterns of like, oh, you you always use that purple for the body outline.

I wonder what that might mean. You know, it's it's um

it's a playful, curious way to start to be in the body again.

Yeah. And and what I've realized is that many of us that have had um I just learned this Dr. Don Wood stuff. I'm trying to get him on the show, but emotional concussions instead of trauma, you know what I mean? like these these times since you're born having these situations that have happened that get stored in the system not just the subconscious but in your body right cuz sometimes like

for example a long time ago something happened when I was about 5 years old I forgot it got stored but every time I heard an ambulance there was something that happened and I and I'm and at 47 years old I found out what it was

and wow

yeah so so it's like understanding that these things are stored. And what I love that you're doing, you're touching spaces that as we grow up to be adults. Think about it.

We're told no that like you can't be silly or fun or enjoy yourself or you know you have to especially in the western world it's like you got to be this adult or tragedy happens to human beings at a very young age and our body remembers it and so we disassociate so we can survive the tragedy.

Yes.

Right. I mean that's the thing that I realized when I used to work with complex PTSD clients or trauma work is that and going through my own stuff and you know I would go to drum circles and I remember my husband would watch and he would he wouldn't participate but he enjoyed seeing what was happening and then I and then when I was done I was like [sighs] because it's music from the drum circles would play like some from Africa or from um native of Americans.

You see where I'm getting at? And you get it, Ken. This is why I wanted to have this conversation because many people don't. And I'm trying to break stigma in the in the black, indigenous people of color community for others too to understand and in the churches or religion in general, too.

Because sometimes what happens, we get so stuck in a in this narrow mindset of we're right and everybody else is wrong.

And so to me, that's where a lot of trauma happens too because people want to be loved, validated, understood, respected. And what I'm hearing with your work that you do is you give them a really safe space to do that, but not just the talk therapy, which hello, that's what I do.

I'm not putting it down. It works for some people. That's all they need.

Absolutely

right. But then there's others that are like, "Okay, I've been in therapy for 15 years now and they're not getting healing." So to me I want to also know more about you know you said body mapping and then you you use music as well correct.

So music is a beautiful it can either be an accompanying sort of backdrop for our sessions or it can be something that encourages and supports particular emotional states. So I get the pleasure of compiling all of these beautiful playlists. Um, and so for example, with my workshops or in or in one-on-one sessions, I'm a huge encourager of this is their time that they've carved out in their in their world to come sit in session or be part of this workshop.

And I encourage them to whatever they might be feeling, whatever has charge for them, let's let that take the stage

no matter what it is

for this contained period of time. Let's get curious about that. And again, they're setting the pace of of how much they lean in, how deep they go, how light or deep that experience is. But if that feels good for them, if that if that is the most current and the most charged part of their body or emotion that's present, my belief is that there's something there.

There's something there that as you said wants to be seen, wants to be heard, wants to be validated. And the power of this work is that I know the experience of bypassing emotion, of numbing ourselves from that, of being scared to go there.

And I encourage and guide people through that, through getting more comfortable with inquiring into those places. But when we do go there and [clears throat] when we give that emotion, that feeling the stage so to speak and this opportunity, this space to be met.

Oh, you know what? What is what's actually happening here? What what what am I feeling? What wants to be heard? There's something beautiful that happens because for so long it hasn't been given this space.

Yeah.

And there is it's it's showing up and it shows up in the body. We know that the extreme example of that is that it can show up in ill health.

But in these contained safe spaces

we can inquire. And what I encourage with the music is let the music also be a a a holder of your experience. So with the with the background music which is often instrumental,

okay,

mainly instrumental.

It supports our exploration. It also allows us to um park the thoughts, you know, and often there's always a narrative, you know, like, oh, I feel a bit silly and oh, how does this look? You know, that that narrative is present.

But I encourage people to sort of park that again, return to the breath, return to the current moment

and feel into how the body wants to intuitively move. How does that say they're working with the shoulder and tension in the shoulder?

Yeah. How does that part of you want to just release a little bit to stretch a little bit? What does it need? And I feel find that the music creates an atmosphere where they can inquire further and deeper.

Yeah.

And and let it let it loose. and and you're giving a safe this is what I say some because some clients come in and they're thinking that they have to please me right or like because that's the story that they're coming from and so I'm just going no you're actually paying me money to give you a have a service for you and this is it this is your safe place where you can explore what you're talking

about and we figure out what will work for you because honestly if I if I feel or they're not getting well after a certain I'm like, you know, we got to look into other space.

I'm not one of those therapists that will keep them forever and a day just because they're paying me money, right? It's to me it's [clears throat] about the healing.

It's about the healing and and to and then when they're doing well, then they go tell other people and then, you know, hey, listen, then I'll have another client for you. Tell me how how long when you say you do a workshop. Um and and is there different ages?

How do you how do you do your work? Like is it like oh for six weeks we do it and we meet six of us once a week or you know one-on-one or is it all of it? Like how tell me more about your processes. [snorts]

Yeah. Um so I've been running intuitive self since 2016. So, it's taken on many different forms and shapes and it's um included a variety of different offerings. I used to work predominantly with children and teenagers.

Oh, yeah.

And in the last few years have switched my focus to adults and mainly women come to my workshops, but there are men as well. And I offer a variety of one-off workshops which are anywhere between, you know, 2 to four hours. I have run programs where it's weekly, so it's it's consistent and we do a different theme each week within an 8week program, for example.

And then, of course, there's the one-on-one sessions. And the reason why I offer the variety is because people are still not as familiar with this work with movement art therapy. So it's an opportunity for them to come and taste what the processes are like.

See if it's for them cuz again it's not going to be for everybody necessarily. And what I advocate for is, you know, I found I found my tools and I stand by them as pillars of my own healing journey, but that doesn't mean that I'm not open to other varieties of tools.

And I just want everyone to be able to find what works for them in whatever season of life they're in.

Exactly. So, in the one-off workshops, for example, there's usually a theme or an inquiry, and I'm able to guide them through a journey, which usually starts with some body awareness. So, really dropping into the body, dropping into the present moment. And then I often start by using cards.

So I I work with these beautiful soul cards by an artist Deborah Kof Chapen. And what I love about them is that it's all visual visual representations of different um bodies and different colors and shapes. And I often lay these out in the middle of the room.

And whatever people are coming with,

Mhm.

I encourage them to, you know, is there a card there that's really drawing you? You don't need to know why. You don't need to know the meaning of it, but is there something that's standing out to you? And of course, there always is.

There's always a card. And sometimes people like, "Oh, that one." And people leap towards them like, "That one's mine. I have to get it before anyone else gets it."

Yeah. because for whatever reason that card, the imagery on that card might represent something that they haven't been able to find words to yet, but it is like, oh, that's the grief that I've been holding. That's the pain that I've been feeling.

And sometimes, you know, people are invited to share as much or as little in that group setting, particularly because I mean, in the 8 to 10 week programs is the same closed group and and we go deeper with each other and and there's more um comfortability in sharing.

But in those one-off workshops, I mean, generally speaking, people are are are pretty open, which is beautiful, but you know, it might be people's first time, so they might not feel as comfortable.

Mhm.

And this is an entry point. So the card and the visual is an entry point to that inquiry to what as as I was saying earlier has charge for them. And then we enter this space where they become really aware of their body.

They've got that image in their mind's eye. That's their inquiry point and I guide them through usually [clears throat] about a 40minute intuitive movement exploration. And when you say that, is it you just telling them or saying, "Hey, now feel this." I mean, when you say intuitive movement, I would like to understand that a little more.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Sometimes I um I'm you know I live and breathe this work that I I need to pause to be like yes explain yourself Kathy.

Yeah. Pretend I'm like first grade and I've met just met you. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah.

So when it comes to intuitive movement and I use this phrase because it is nondirective. So I see my role as I am facilitator and guide but everything that I'm offering is invitational and I frame it this way to the participants. So I say you know I'm going to be peppering in different prompts and different inquiries if they resonate with you if you want to be inspired by that offering I encourage you to lean into that.

But if it doesn't resonate just drop it. just let it dissipate. [snorts] So the whole atmosphere is really to encourage deep listening to their body. How does their body feel? What does their body need in this moment? And what's beautiful for me is that I look around the space and you've got bodies that are lying there rolling around on the floor.

You've got bodies who are over in the corner shaking. You've got people who are are moving fluidly around the room. You've got people stomping. Like everyone is encouraged to follow their body's lead in what they need. And that can be in response to the music.

It can be in response to how they're feeling. But the prompts and inquiries that I offer are encouraging that deep listening and that relationship with tuning into what the body might need.

Wow.

And the music supports that. So, can can we talk about the music because I'm wondering is it like a specialized megahertz music or is it something that as you were trained they realized as they were I don't know if they studied it and they've done this for so long that they realized these are the things or the sounds that might because I've been trying to go deeper into that too and find someone to talk about either the science behind sound healing and stuff like that.

So like with your music, is it like uh what's it called? Bilateral or I forgot the name of it, but is there is it certain sounds or tones or nature sounds? Like can you tell me a little more about the music?

Yeah, of course. So, I guess my two um main influences when it comes to designing a playlist and a a movement journey

is and I might I might get her name I might pronounce her name wrong but Dr. Marsha Levanthal she is again one of the pioneers of dance movement therapy.

Okay. and she created sort of like a fivestage process which was all about safety and all about that contained journey of a warm up. Then I'm I'm going to forget what the five stages are, but there's five stages of gently going into a warmup.

Okay.

Rising into a theme like a major point of inquiry and then coming down again of like you know if we're thinking bell curve coming down into a closing and integration.

Similarly Gabrielle Roth who is the founder of five rhythms. So she created she was part of a band, she made music and then she created this embodiment movement process called five rhythms [snorts] which goes through a similar sort of bell curve journey of five different rhythms.

And um I'm going to I'm going to just

Well, it's okay cuz if you named them and then of course me and uh my buddy Chat GPT will research real quick and find links.

So the five rhythms are flowing.

Okay.

Chaos, lyrical, and stillness.

Okay. I love that. So can you see how it's sort of you know flowing intuitively and then more um rapid movements are encouraged with the sicado and chaos and this is backed by the music that is played.

Yeah. Yeah.

Then it flows into lyrical and then ends in stillness. And again something that I was taught is that we're never really still right because the breath there's always going to be movement in our body with

and life force is always moving because I you know traditional Chinese medicine if you understand that and understanding right it's like all these points in our body and every our organs are always moving we're always like I feel our cells are always trying to heal itself and it's like now you're opening up spaces with what you do for the body to do that and letting go of like some subconscious things because you're right like I I've

studied like neuroplasticity, traditional Chinese medicine, ruic I mean because I've been on this road to as a therapist for a long long time and that's probably why I'm like a holistic counselor because it's not like I'm shut down by Freud.

Yeah.

So like I love that

you use so many different modalities and tools.

Yeah. Well, well, like you said, in in intuition is something that I feel some of us that had a lot of um trauma in childhood, we get that antenna and sometimes if that antenna is not cleared out,

you know what I mean? Or that system is not cleared out to understand and we're always trying to keep ourselves safe. See, I feel safe now. I feel everything, every emotion in the emotion wheel, which I'll put in this show notes because that's something I use a lot because I'm an online therapist.

But it is to gather the information in your body and have that understanding that you're safe now. You're not back wherever that trauma or that emotional concussion happened. And you give people [clears throat] a place to come together, not only to connect with themselves, but it sounds like you you give them connection to be seen and heard in every one of those spaces.

And then I have a feeling after they're done with you and you're if especially if it's a group that they stay connected, right? What's really beautiful is that, you know, these are people who and maybe they're regulars that they come and um and this is this is their form of of

creating sacred time to be with themselves.

Yes. But what I love is that I always encourage, you know, this work is about deep connection with self, but it's also about connecting with others in a non-judgmental space where it's an environment where, you know, after the movement and then we we do some art process, we you know, we we can then spend time to be with our bodies and be with our art piece that we've created.

But the encouragement is there to then depending on how big the group is, you know, find a pair and debrief with them. And I have a a particular um structure that I offer for that debriefing so that there is safety and there is deep listening and presence for one another.

Because at the end of the day, what I've what I most know to be true is that we are all longing and yearning for connection. And there is power in being fully present with one another like we are now. Being present with a stranger that you've just met in a workshop, but they are willing and listening to what you have to share about your experience, about what you've drawn on the page.

And I really try to encourage everyone to be in that space of presence, be in that space of curiosity because we're relationally healing through that process of we don't need to know this person. We don't even know their name or their story or what they do for a job, but they have just seen and witnessed a powerful shift

in in their partner. And you know, I do this work now, but I'm also still an, you know, an ongoing student. And I know the power of those spaces where we're able to move freely and share openly. And it's it's saved me beyond belief of just the power of presence and being witnessed.

Yeah, that's that's it. It's something that you know and as you know I am a woman of faith in the Christian faith it doesn't and but I think all faiths healthy healthy faiths not high control faiths that are using it for fear and stuff like that I'm talking about like has that understanding that it is about connection.

We're we're trying to connect to creator something higher and bigger than us. And we're meant to connect with other human beings and actually living things because when you talk about life force like anything living has energy.

I mean we that creator has made and so to me like that that yeah like what you're talking about makes so much sense of if we try to truly understand who we are and search our own hearts and know our anxious thoughts because that is something in Psalm 139 I start every episode with fearfully and wonderfully made because Psalm 139 to me is like if people were to start there even if they don't know who Jesus

is or they don't have any beliefs but understand the the wording of that and at the end it says search my heart and know my anxious thoughts because we're responsible for ourselves and to me the Bible's not supposed to be bullets or arrows to throw at others actually a mirror for ourselves to really gather information in how to be a decent human being That's so beautiful and it's such it's so lovely to hear your interpretation of

the intention, you know, that intention for that inner work and to be really self-aware.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the that's the that's what therapy is supposed to be. And and and I use the word therapy because even though you might not have this license, right? And I know there's people like there's coaches, there's, you know, but to me, I think we're supposed to come and help and you have a team.

Like me having my acupuncturist, but I also have my functional doctor, but I also have my pastor. And so I do. You see what I mean? It's a community. It's a village. And that's what we're missing nowadays is this

this village of of humans that actually care for each other. Not

not this like I'm up here, you're down here, here's this, here's that. I'm in control. Like, you know, because that's it seems like it's like two different. You have humans that want to do the right thing for the people no matter where they're from and where they're,

you know, what situation they find themselves in. And then you just have super greedy people, but then I have to sit back and be like, "Oh, I just judged that person. I want to not be like that. I don't want to be like that."

Right? So I want to know about because you know that embodied social justice is a newer concept for many embodied social justice and I was like what is that? Oh no are we going to have to have a part two like

but maybe we could touch a little on that just a little of like what is that and how would you explain it to someone that's never heard about that including churches.

Yes. Um, okay. So, embodied social justice focuses on how politics are embedded in everyday experiences. So, it's not about necessarily putting the focus on external systems, but about how our how we experience it in our felt body dayto-day. So, [snorts] how the body experiences oppression, inequality, trauma, and how that impacts how we show up in the world, how we show up in our relationships.

And [snorts] what I loved about it, and I'm I'm gathering that you got the phrase embodied social justice from from one of the trainings on my on my website that I that I did. So what the training advocates for is that instead of social justice being a process that starts with our thinking minds that it is an embodied activism which understands and forefronts the body as a resource, the body as you know how do we how do we feel in our body?

How do we relate to other people in our body? It recognizes that um you know our systems of oppression and trauma affects us physically as well as emotionally, mentally,

right?

So, you know, very similar to to themes that we've already touched on today, but it's [snorts] urging people to be more body aware and reclaim our agency. So instead of it being something justice being something that's out there, it's actually something that we practice.

So how do we

stay present for one another? How do we listen compassionately? How do we continue to care for ourselves in our bodies and and and you know like walk the talk, so to speak.

I love that. Yes. Walk the talk. I love that.

Yeah.

I mean, that makes sense because I I do living in South Florida, I come from a lot of cultures and as you see, I'm a woman of color and so I know during uh 2020, I was working at an alternative high school and it was it was hard because a lot of these young boys, especially at these alternative high schools, would come in and they had so much anger and they were watching the social media and

the news and and so they would come in and I'm like, "We have to get that anger out of your body Because if not, you're going to punch the teacher or the cops, you know, like you that we I had to keep get them back to, okay, you have every right to be angry at this time, but where is where is the evidence and how can we change the world without you going to prison or get

jail or doing something, but you have the right to be angry, you know, like we there is so much injustice out there in the world.

There is.

There is. And I love I love that because you [snorts] normalize their experience. You know, they're they're they're experiencing it, they're seeing it, they're living it every day instead of bypassing that emotion of anger, which you know, so often. And I and I experienced this as a child.

You know, anger was seen as bad. Anger was seen that behavior was seen as bad and something that if you if you expressed anger, if you expressed that emotion, you were a bad person.

And so when it comes to bringing the body to the forefront and embodied social justice, you know, when we speak about these institutions and and churches and things, it's like, okay, how do we actually presence how the body stores trauma and pay attention to which is what you which is what you did and what I would love more institutions in particular to recognize is that any any behavior, what's actually happening in the body?

How do we recognize those signs of overwhelm or disconnection or rage and support people through the body to self-regulate, to co-regulate, to acknowledge that we're all going to have different experiences and different ways of experiencing things

and to support them through it.

Yeah.

No. And this is why there's some that like with football, they would go into football and they felt that's their connection or I mean I've had clients right here and I don't have clients that come in person but they come in and I'll never forget there was one time I could tell like you're right like they're taught many people are taught that anger and sadness are bad things and we have to realize the range of our emotions and feelings are okay.

That is how God made us. to [clears throat] me in my belief system. Jesus Christ showed all of the emotions that humans go through. It was, you know, he was he flipped tables. He he was in despair at the So, it it's like trying to understand, especially for those who claim the name of Jesus Christ.

I got to get people to understand that those in in in the Christian because that's what I know the most of. I mean, I've studied other religions and stuff and I come from something else, but I just want people to understand that every emotion like that good girl like we have that in in, you know, oh, you got to be a good girl.

You can't you can't and so I have angry young women or women that come in and I'm telling you when they were coming in person, there was one time where I could tell she was angry. She did not know what to do with it.

So, I just quietly got some plates and a hammer and some garbage bags. And I'm like, and I prayed real hard before I walked back into my office and I said, "Write down everything you're feeling." And she she was like, "What?" And she wrote and wrote and wrote on this plate all over.

And I'm like, "Now get it out." And she just like did not know what to do with that. But you see that is that's moving.

Yes. And after she just sat there and raged and raged and raged and I let her have that, she cried and cried and it finally like it loosened out of her body.

And that I bet is what you see all the time but without hopefully the plates flying all over and thank goodness we had glasses and goggles, you know. But but do you see like sometimes I get clients to go to rage rooms, you know, there's stuff here.

Yeah.

So cathartic. that or where they're journaling or the art or I mean there's just my my young boys back in the day I it's something called rap therapy where they would just they wouldn't talk to me but they would write and write with their things and then they would perform it in front of me and I'm like

I'm like man you need a producer but no you don't like you know I'm like I'm not trying to encourage more I mean I love rap music but you know what I mean like it was just their way to be able to express these things and not this traditional like one way and and it's a lot to do to with trust.

You got to

it's a lot to do with trust. But I Oh my gosh, I'm like buzzing because I love all of those processes and all of those ways cuz at the at the through line with all of it is self-expression. It is the encouragement of people's selfexpression with whatever way feels good for them, right?

And like that, you know, for those boys love of rap music,

you know, their own words, they they've got agency and they can reclaim their story. Like how good reclaim their story, Kathy. That's exactly what you do and I try to do in the format that I've learned in the modalities, right? And let's just touch base now on your book because that's reclaiming your story.

I have a feeling with the poetry or what was the name of your book again? So my book is called Body Wisdom, a guide to connecting with your intuitive self.

Okay. Tell me a little bit about it.

I [sighs] So this book I'm so proud of this book and it is continues to be a resource even for myself to return to to remind me of who I am and my why. But I really wrote this because so many clients and even friends, you know, were having challenges connecting with their body, connecting with their heart and connecting with their intuition.

I remember um a friend of mine, she was she was trying to decide about a job and I remember asking her, "Oh, what does your intuition say?" And she was like, "What do you mean? What do you mean my intuition?"

Yeah.

And I realized that over time, over these practices that I've cultivated through my studies and through this work, that I have a really strong sense of self and a really strong connection with my intuition. But that's because I've worked hard at it. And that's because I've intentionally connected with my body and heart.

And I realized then that I wanted to I wanted to share my experience of this work and I wanted to relate to others through my stories. So what the book is is it's a goes over 10 chapters. So there's a there's intro and a closing.

So, eight meaty chapters where every chapter starts with a poem and it's beautifully illustrated throughout with a graphic designer called Grace Reckler who is another woman of color and I worked with her to design what I wanted to be a really visually vibrant journey because the encouragement was for readers to get playful and get curious about connecting with their body and their heart.

So after the poem I share some of the stories of my lived experience. So for example the the first chapter is about intuition. So how I came to be disconnected from my intuition. [snorts]

Yeah.

And then how I started to get curious about how my intuition was speaking to me. And then at the end of each chapter, I offer a variety of different invitations and practices

that are this work that we've been speaking about. So, it's again I want to be accessible to many different learning styles and many different entry points for people. So, there's journal prompts, there's movement exercises, there's body awareness inquiries, and there's art processes.

I love that.

Yeah. I'll send you a copy of the ebook after this.

Yeah. So, okay. So, I'm just wondering, is it on Amazon? Do you guys have Amazon? Listen to me. Look at how ethnosentric I am.

Is there Amazon in Australia? I don't even

Do you have Amazon in Australia? Uh, the best way to access it is on my website.

Okay. And I've got Yeah, I've got paperback because I, you know, I'm old school. I love to be able to hold the book and

I highlight. I write. Yeah, I'm the same way. I wrote

little little notes. Um, but it's also, you know, you know, for the auditory people, I made it an audio book.

And for ease of access, I also have it as an ebook. And I'll send you a copy of the ebook. And what I love about what I did with the ebook is that for the poems and for the invitations, there's a little um speaker symbol next to those that you can press on with the ebook and you hear my voice guiding you through the invitation so that you could you can look away from the screen and and participate in the

especially because I know us Americans, many of us love the Australian accent. Wait, can I ask you a question and be honest? Do you guys like our accent?

I love any accent that's different to the Australian accent.

I always wondered that. I always wanted to ask people like from England or South Africa like do you like our American accents or not?

Yeah. And it's and it's so funny because I think and me and my daughter do this but you know by accident but when we hear an accent we like we it's almost like we try to to do the same. We're like oh it's so you know for us it's like theatrical like doing something different.

It's respectful to me. I don't do it to make fun. I just love it. I I just it's just something I What do I say? Beautiful. Am I allowed to say sexy on my own podcast? I'm not sure. But it is anyway.

But it is.

Oh, Kathy, I you know what? I could sit here and talk to you for another hour or so, but I want to be respectful to the listener and and to your time as well. And I know my husband is probably coming home now and he's hungry.

So,

thank you.

It is 7:11 right now. Um, so before we say goodbye, is there anything you would like to say to the audience? I have so enjoyed this conversation. We have deep dived in a variety of beautiful areas which is what I'm all about depth and conversation.

So thank you so much for having me. Um, I think I'd love to leave the readers with, you know, just to encourage them that if this conversation has sparked inspiration to follow that, to follow that curiosity with connecting with their body more in whatever way feels good for them.

And you know, I'm someone who, like I said, with with that documentary that first sparked that curiosity in me to dive into community development work. I listen to those signals. I listen to how my body responds to particular things, whether I hear something or read something.

And if you if [snorts] that's been your experience through listening to our conversation today, I would love them to get playfully curious about following that. I love that.

Oh, by the way, I should have asked this before this question, but it can do you work with people online around the world or is it local and and tell me just a little bit more about that in case someone's listening that's in Australia that wants to work or do you have a place that they come to like tell me just you know like

Yeah. So, I guess the beauty of what happened in 2020 meant that we were able to move our work online

and yeah, most of my work is actually online now, though I do love working in person, but those one-on-one sessions I do online. So, they're they go for an hour and a half. And I encourage people to get their own, you know, art supplies and to be in a space where they can move comfortably and privately.

Um, but all of that can be done online. And I also offer workshops. Um, and there's a variety of an hour and a half to three-hour professional development training workshops. So for practitioners in the well-being space, if they're curious about how to weave this kind of movement and body-based creative modalities into their existing work with clients and groups, I offer training in that as well online.

All right. Well, all that will be in the show notes, her her website and everything that we spoke about today. And Kathy, thank you so much for being here. It was this was great. I loved it.

I loved it. Thank you, Diana. All right. Okay, listener and remember to please trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor Podcast is for entertainment,formational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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