When Words Aren't Enough: How Art Therapy Heals Trauma, Anxiety & Relationships (MBT Explained) | Anna Green, LMHC

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human. Welcome back to the Holistic Counselor podcast, where I hope faith, science, and holistic healing intersect. I'm Diana S. Rice from Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. My guest today is Anna Green, licensed mental health counselor and chief clinical officer at Thrive.

Anna and I first met at a Lynn University event. As we walked through the parking lot before the conference began, I noticed her beautiful accent, and you know I love accents and the stories behind them. We spoke briefly, and something about that initial exchange made me want to continue the conversation.

So, we later met up more intentionally to get to know each other. When I learned that she studied fine art in England before becoming an art therapist and clinical leader, my curiosity was immediately sparked. Over the years in my therapy practice, I have worked with many highly creative clients, and I've seen how the creative mind is often misunderstood.

Sometimes it's mislabeled, sometimes it's over diagnosed, sometimes it's medicated in ways that unintentionally quiet expression instead of helping it mature. One of my favorite quotes is, "Art is meant to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed." That tension between disruption and comfort is often where emotional healing begins.

As a person of faith, I deeply respect creation because I love and respect the ultimate creator, the one who formed each of us so uniquely. Creativity reflects design. Expression reflects humanity, and learning to understand our inner world is not weakness, it is wisdom.

Anna is licensed in Florida, Indiana, Arizona, and South Carolina with over 10 years of experience in mental health, addiction, and palliative care. She is trained in psychodynamic psychotherapy, EMDR, mentalization-based treatment, often called MBT, and of course, art therapy. She has contributed scholarly work in art psychotherapy addressing complex clinical presentations, and now leads the development of innovative evidence-based patient-centered programs designed to help individuals gain clarity, move beyond past challenges, and achieve lasting change.

Today, we're exploring creativity and mental health, and what it means to understand ourselves when words are not enough. Whether you are a clinician, a person of faith, someone navigating trauma, or simply a human trying to make sense of your emotions, I hope this conversation leaves you feeling seen, understood, and encouraged because healing is not just about diagnosis, it's about clarity, it's about connection.

It is about learning to understand your own mind and heart with compassion. Anna, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Your introduction made me giggle a little bit how we met. But that was a great meeting, and I'm glad we've been able to continue the conversation.

Thank you for having me.

yeah, for sure. So before we even talk about theory or your leadership and all the things, right? I loved I love to start with your story. You studied fine art in England

Mhm. before becoming an art therapist. What first drew you toward art as a way of understanding people and healing? Yeah, good question. So, I did art throughout school and had volunteered throughout a lot of my youth in different settings, had the opportunity to be creative in different ways and doing the fine art degree.

I didn't have in mind art therapy at that point. Okay.

I didn't know it existed until I was doing my fine art degree. Um but my art has always involved people. I've always done a lot of kind of personal character studies, observing the way people move, the way they dress, the places that they find themselves in.

That's a lot of what my artwork has been personally. Um so the curiosity of people through my own creative exploration. Um and then it was when I was doing my fine art degree that I learned that art therapy existed and was able to combine my experience of wanting to be in a helping profession of some kind and art together and learning that that even existed.

I was like, "Oh wow, this is this is a great job for me because it combines my two passions." Um and being in fine art for my undergrad um in the UK was not what I had expected it to be. Um I in a brilliant way.

Like I don't think I quite knew what I was getting myself into. I thought that I was going to be learning how to make, you know, I'd be doing painting classes, drawing classes, sculpture classes and

Right. we didn't. Um we learned how to think. Really?

Um yeah, it was very conceptual. It was No, it was not art history either. It was very very conceptual art. And what I mean by that is learning how to think about art, how to talk about art, understanding the intention from the artist's perspective, why you make what you make.

So, a lot of questions, a lot of answers, a lot of deep discovery, a lot of reading. Why do I do what I do? Why am I interested in what I'm interested in? Why am I curious about people rather than how to make.

The making kind of was secondary to that. So, it really formed a lot of my a lot of the direction I took next in kind of like how to how to ask questions, how to understand. Um yeah. So, I I looked over some of your You you sent me your link, right?

And I was like, "Wow, yeah. This is This is unique." I mean, it was This is what I love about art. I'm not I'm not a you know, I'm not an artist, but I think all of us have the ability to be an artist, honestly, because if we're made to me how I see it, if we're made in the image of the ultimate creator of God, right?

To me, it's God. Uh uh um

[clears throat]

it's just like we have creativity, but what happens is this world will will mush it down or make you think in into too much into a left-brainer or or something like that. I I really think that we all have It's like a childlike kind of thing that happens within the soul to express ourselves, right?

Because words are not for every but not everybody can can't speak. So, you know, for someone that has never heard of art therapy, because some people will listen to this and be like, "Art therapy? Oh, okay. So, we're sitting there finger painting or we're Coloring in.

Coloring in, you know, like a book or a workbook. Or and and and that's art Like I I don't want to put any of that down. It's No, no, no, it's part of it. Right, it's part of it. These are layers. There's different parts.

And then I know I've heard people like because I I was in the film industry, and then I was um helping out with uh with a city-run thing with art, like fine art, and we would have to sit there and vote what was fine art and what was crafts.

Yeah. And so I need a little more explanation, too, because art therapy, fine art. I mean, and and and that's what I want people to understand. There are people that see art and they have and it's in our in our field. Every field has people that think they're better than others.

And then there's people that are just genuinely in there trying to do their best with the gifts and talents they were given, and some people will say it is fine art, okay? I need that explanation myself, because I still to this day, when we were trying to vote and everything, and I get it.

It's someone that had a degree in in art. That was one thing that they were allowed to come to the art festival if if they had a degree in art and uh it's just but I don't want anyone to be feeling like they can't do it.

So, art therapy, like what is it and and you know, [clears throat] it's not just drawing, is it? No, no. The The way that I describe it to to patients, because I still run an art therapy group weekly right now. Um I describe it as art therapy is a is a form of psychotherapy, where art is used as a way to express yourself as well as talking.

So, when you're in an art therapy group, you're in an art therapy individual session, there's typically a range of materials that you can use, whether that's digital or whether that's pen and paper or clay or whatever it might be or a camera. Um You You can Again, every art therapist will approach it differently.

Some are more directive than others um in how they approach your session. Um but I explain it as art therapy is a space where you can explore how you feel, how you think, places, situations, dreams, thoughts. Um And it's also a space to be playful.

And you can make whatever you want with whatever you want. I always say that there's kind of only two rules in an art therapy group that I that I like to say. The first one is try not to rubbish or insult your own work or anybody else's.

Mhm. Um the second one is don't touch anybody else's artwork without asking them.

Just just to be protect protective of the space is protective of the artwork. But Yeah. So art therapy, it's it really creates a platform to express yourself in a different way. It can be complementary to talking or it can be the talking. Yeah.

You do not have to be an artist to do art therapy. That's kind of the biggest myth that I I I like to to shift right away. Cuz you don't need to have any skill to be here. There's nothing wrong with stick people.

There's nothing wrong with scribbles. There's nothing wrong with random words on the page. Yeah. Anything goes. And it's non-judgmental and it's also not a lesson. I'm not an art teacher. I'm not teaching you. There's no right or wrong way to do it. Whatever you make is what we're going to explore and we'll go from there.

Yeah. That that makes a lot of sense. And and I think because you have that degree because that's another thing like us therapists, I'm not a certified art therapist, but I have used art therapy in my practice because that like when I worked in alternative high schools, Anna Yes. there were some people that come in with such extreme trauma, select mutism.

Uh they they were not able to express, but when I was able to just give them and I'm like, just do whatever. You're here with me for an hour. And then little by little when they started trusting me, and then they would start showing me things, and I was just blown away.

And it was the same with some of my uh some of those that were in the in in gangs and stuff like that with the rap, spoken word. It's that kind of therapy where they did not know how to maybe speak like we do, right?

Completely like that, but they knew how to just get that anger out with two words here, three words here, and it all made sense.

[clears throat]

It it is it it creates an extra layer of safety. And what I mean by that is whatever you put on the paper, it's not going to harm you. It's not going to harm anybody. And even if it's not paper, you know, you can punch a bag of clay if you need to.

You know, you can throw it on the table. You can get red paint everywhere, you know. It's a space where you can make a mess. Yes. And then we put the room back together again. Right. No, it's

It does it. It's a containment. Right. It it's um So, many people who struggle to put words, right, what they feel, especially when they if they grew up in environments like I was talking about with some of my clients, and they weren't welcomed.

Why can art sometimes feel safer than words? Like, what is it about it? Is it the kinesthetic cuz I I You know how we know about EMDR, and I've spoken to EMDR specialist, but to me I'm thinking art is is doing at the same time as thinking, and it's moving the system stuff out of the system.

Like, it's giving you something to actually utilize cuz sometimes talk therapy isn't enough. For some people it's great. But, do you see what I'm getting at? It's like the movement of the anxiety coming out or the anger or the things that have been held in for so long in the subconscious or in the system.

What do you think about that?

Anna. Sorry, I lost Did you hear me? No, that's okay. Those happens. Did you hear the question of like art

Yes. You heard the question of I think it was about why is art feeling safer than words? Was that the the question?

Yes. Yes, and how it moves through your body. So it kind of I was talking about EMDR. Like you know like sometimes you you EMDR is hitting different parts of the brain. So it works in that manner. So to me I'm thinking art when you're moving it out of your system.

So why can't art sometimes feel safer than the words? Mhm. I think that a big part of that is we we do experience a lot in life without necessarily putting words attached to it. You know, we live in and through our eyes a lot of the time or or there may be some experiences that we have that were beyond words or beyond the establishment like beyond having a growing vocabulary to even articulate them or understand them.

Um so art is an opportunity to see what comes up. Um both in our you know both in our plans, but also seeing if there's other kind of symbols or themes that unearth ourselves that we didn't maybe even expect to come up. You know, sometimes it can surprise us.

Um and it can be particularly if you grew up in an environment where saying things out loud, there would be punishment for that. There would be actual shame for that. Like I'm saying there's something safer um about putting it in an image um than by putting words on a page or even saying the words out loud.

Yeah. It it can be it can feel a little softer or more approachable as a way to express oneself. Do you have a favorite medium that you use for art? Like did you because you have art groups. So you understand and you studied it, but I'm sure that as you were learning fine art and we all have a story, you know, I'm not going to get deep into your background unless you want to share it or something.

But most of us that go into therapy or you know, we have our own stuff or layers of like this is why we got so curious in human behavior because of our own stories or stories we heard or we saw a neighbor's mom talking to herself and turned out she was schizophrenic.

You know, like I've heard it all and so to me what was your favorite medium because that's to me is something too. Like I know there's people that just love clay and that's all they do and and then there's some people that do the oil and the stuff that comes out of their brains.

I'm just like I had a client who would show me her artwork and I'm like you are expressing what you are now working through with me in that art and that's what we see like Van Gogh. I mean like you could just see people's heart and vulnerability in the artwork and I think sometimes the artist is misunderstood.

You know what I mean by that? They are misunderstood. Like somebody that might not understand like a psychedelic art piece will be like that person's crazy. And you see and then and then it's like Like there's more to it.

Yeah, I know I just asked you two layers of question but see that's my brain. I am going off script. Sorry. And No, no, it's okay. But you see what I'm getting at? Like what was your story back in the day that made you really love what you loved to do along with how do we break them these myths of like when we go to see and that's why I love that quote, right?

Because sometimes somebody will walk in and be like oh, you know, and it made them feel like, you know, but like what say you? Yeah. Um in terms of the art media question that you asked, you know, what type? I feel like I kind of have two styles.

Um I I my main media though is is painting and that can be watercolor, oil, acrylic. Uh and then I also have more of an illustration side to myself as well. Um one is more from my imagination, just kind of my own abstract shapes, seeing what it becomes, how I'm feeling.

It's kind of much more of more of what I would call more like my therapeutic art. Mhm. And then my other style is maybe based off what I'm seeing around me or images that I've taken. Um so I kind of have the two and I I do talk about different media in art therapy with patients.

Like I might give some direction Mhm. um based on how they're presenting. Um for example, if I have a patient who likes things a certain way Mhm. and maybe struggles with that idea of it's okay to be outside the lines and to be a little messy or to not have order or to be fully in control.

Mhm. Uh once I build rapport with them, I might kind of prompt them to explore a material that is harder to control. Oh, I love that. So that there is an opportunity to gain comfort with something that's harder to control in a session in a therapy space or a material when it might be harder to do that outside of the therapy room.

Yeah. That's like a So whether that is by Yes. You rewind the brain to get them to understand this Well, I'm I'm thinking like OCD, anxiety and those that have to have so much control. Like I have to stay in the lines and then you're like, "No, let's go outside the lines."

And they're probably freaking out.

But at the same time, they trust you enough and that's therapy. See, that's the therapeutic part. Okay. Yes. Yes, discomfort in that change and learning how to play within that. Okay. Um yes. Okay. Um That is so important in art therapy. Okay, because that's that's where we need to get at too, because some people are like, "Oh, you just go and color all the for an hour."

But what you just said, that to me is the the therapeutic component. What else can you use cuz that makes sense for that? But what about someone like that's depressed? What would you like utilize for someone that's depressed? No. I don't necessarily change my direction based on diagnosis or presentation.

Mhm. Um that's not where my approach, personally. Um it's going to be quite open at the beginning. I'm very non-directive in my approach as an art therapist. Yeah. It's really how you feeling. Um how could you reflect that in an image? Is there something on your mind, something you want to be curious of?

So, let's say they are coming to me with depression. I I want to kind of see where they go with it first. Mhm. And then once they start, I might give prompts in the moment or just be more curious in the kind of questions that I ask about what they make.

Mhm. Um like how you feel when you look at your image. Um if it's a let's say it's a character, you know, where are they going? What are they doing? Um imaginative in my questions. Um just to understand their inner world more. Yeah.

That makes sense. And I bet you too that when sometimes stuff comes up that's Yes. heavy for the for the clinician, right? Absolutely. Do you Do you work with children, too, or or I have. Um a lot of my career more in I haven't in the US, but in the UK, um my first position was I called myself a traveling art therapist.

I worked for uh county council uh school service. So, like you, I was going I was going into schools with my suitcase of all my art materials, going to one school for say one student, four schools in a day, going in doing the session.

And that was from um And then when I worked at the hospice, that was ages 2 to 19. Um so, quite a number of years, I want to say maybe four, five years, roughly, with children, the youngest age 2. Wow. Um with art therapy.

Hospice. Palliative care, which is the hospice you're talking about, correct? Yes. They were not the unwell um I was working with when I was at the hospice, I was working with the children and family members of the adult patient. Oh my gosh, I thought you

Rather than I did not work I did I did work at a children's hospice for a while as well, but that was I predominantly worked with the siblings. Okay. Um at the hospice um and families. That was more of my work. But the education setting where I worked was kind of more mainstream mental health and in mainstream education.

Um so, I have worked with some children. Um And it's not that different of approach than working with adults. Um just a little bit more glitter.

A little more glitter. I love that. I love that. So, now I'm curious with um this mentalization-based treatment or MBT, okay? Because that's I'm like, "Wow." Because honestly, I this is probably the 110th episode, right? And I'm thinking like I have tried to get everybody from every modality on this show.

And so I'm like, "Ooh, a new thing. Like, all right, let's get let's figure out what this is, all right?" Mentalization based treatment or MBT, which can sound intimidating to people outside the field. In everyday language, what does mentalization actually mean for someone trying to understand themselves or their relationships?

Yes. Yes, it is a a complex word to to explain it. Um The easiest way to explain it is mentalization or mentalizing is is a process of understanding what's going on in your mind and what's going on in somebody else's mind. Okay. And when I say what's going on somebody else's mind and your own mind, I mean how you feel, how you think, your intentions, your desires, your beliefs.

Understanding that and being curious of that. And that awareness that we're in a conversation right now. I want to be aware of how what's going on in my mind in this moment, what might be going on for your mind in this moment, and keeping both of that in mind while I'm sat here.

Okay. It's so it's it is very relational. Okay. Who made it? Who made it up? Where is it from? Is it American or is it from England? No, it is not. Um it's growing its awareness in the US. Um there are there are more providers being trained here in the US.

The training The main training for it is um by Anthony Bateman and Peter Fonagy. Um and the main training is at the Anna Freud Centre in London, which is where I did my training. Anna Freud? Wait, that's Sigmund's daughter? Yes, it's at the Anna Freud Centre.

It's in North London. Um that it's a um really amazing organization, lots of training and different services, but that's where they kind of run the training out of. Okay. Um and they they have conducted evidence-based research on mentalization-based treatment. It is particularly helpful for patients with personality disorder, originally borderline personality disorder, but it's now broadened out of that.

There is expanded training as well on using it with children, adolescents, other diagnoses, and systems as well. And I did my training I want to say back in like 2019, 18. Okay. And then 2020, I think I finished it around then. So was it like a [clears throat] 3-year like a 2-year training or something?

Or was it like a certification?

It's in phases, and you have to be supervised. You have to kind of complete a report under supervision to be a mentalization-based training practitioner. To have practitioner status. I'm still curious on what what makes a difference, say, than just talk therapy or psychodynamic therapy that her papi her daddy did, you know, that we all I mean, everyone knows who's the father of psychology.

And for those that don't know that, we like the those in the field, we should know that cuz that's our training, right? Sigmund Freud, right? So, I mean, what else does Is there a workbook? Is there um a curriculum? Like how does it you know, is it step-by-step kind of like EMDR, you have to ask the 10 questions or IFS or stuff like that?

I need I want to know more about M- Of course.

MBT. So, it it is traditionally a little bit more of a long-term therapy. Mhm. The full MBT program and I and I worked in an MBT program in the UK before I moved. Patients would have an individual MBT session. They would have something called MBTI, where it's it is a valuable part of MBT for patients to learn the theory, to have an understanding as to what mentalizing is, how it influences your attachment styles, your diagnosis, misunderstandings.

Um there's also something called the poles of mentalizing, which is about how what kind of lens you you see your relationships in, um whether you are someone who is more automatic in nature or more controlled in nature, more self-focused, more other-focused, to give you some examples.

So patients learn that theory to gain understanding of their own mental state. Is it an assessment they take? Is there like a 100 question assessment and then by the end it it scores it? Or anything like that? Like how Not part of it.

Yeah, I understand. So it it's it's not assessment-based. Um The MBTI is an opportunity to to learn how to apply the knowledge to themselves and their relationship with others. And it is a combined process of individual gaining awareness of the theory and group as well.

Traditionally there's an MBT exploratory group or process group where you are in a group where you are The aim of the group is is to encourage mentalizing. It's a space where you are with other patients who may be struggling with mentalizing in certain aspects.

Um And the the facilitators are there to prompt, to explore, to challenge, um to create the most effective communication spaces possible. Wow, I'm curious how that would work with uh borderline personality disorder.

Yes. You know, how I'm just wondering because I know what in the past when I've had clients that have been diagnosed with borderline, you know,

Mhm. DBT probably was the the one that helped them the most. So, to me, MBT, like what would be I don't know. I I guess I I'm just now cure Now I'm going to go and do a deep dive after we hang up to really go into that because and I'll probably put the if there's a link for other people to learn in the show notes.

You know, I would love that because to me, that's important because in our field, when clinically speaking, we can't learn everything in the 2 years we get our master's degree. And things change because Let Let me tell you, I got my master's, you know, almost two decades ago and a lot of other modalities have grown and learned and reached and come out that actually do help.

Like and so, I'm always trying to learn new things. Um And it's important because some of us we get a client and they get misdiagnosed or they get um you know, the wrong kind of treatment because the clinician doesn't know They're not trained in every single thing.

And so, there you know, if you sometimes you just see through the eyes of what your training is without exploring more and stuff like that. So, to me, MBT, like I would love to know a lot more about it to for any clinician that's listening cuz I have people from all walks of life that listen to the show.

You know, um So, now I want to know how art therapy and MBT work together to help people recognize their emotions, understand others better, and repair relationships because especially when there's been hurt or misunderstanding because that's what I've noticed in in borderline cuz sometimes we think of like just a diagnosis.

Here's the diagnosis, here's the treatment, and this is who you are for the rest of your life. But honestly, Anna, the more I notice the DSM and how how it depends on your belief systems and stuff like that because I've seen cultural incompetency and people being diagnosed too quickly because of the conventional insurance model.

Right away you have to even now because right, you have I literally there's a law that was put on private practice practitioners that the second someone calls and if you have to diagnose them and you don't even know them. Just so because I don't take insurance.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Um so I'm like now I I want to understand though like especially creatives because there's so many creatives like that have a diagnosis and then they're they're so busy in that and then their art and creativity gets diminished.

I've seen that like hardcore and then they become I don't want to say vegetables but then it's like there's a fine line where we're trying to help like it's first do no harm. So MBT and art therapy, how does it respect the human especially if they come in with diagnosis after diagnosis?

Yeah, they're they're very complimentary to each other because they I think they both really explore curiosity. Mhm, that's what's missing. Um that is I use that word probably too much. Um It's it's totally one of my buzzwords as a clinician and as a supervisor.

Be more curious. Um Well, let's explain that. I want to let's go down that rabbit hole because I think you you just nailed it. Curiosity. And and what people fear I think is when they don't understand, they want to label quickly to to be able to control the situation in order to you know, there's so many different layers of our our of our job but curiosity.

What's that actually mean? Yeah, and in in MBT we we do we we do teach about curiosity as a basic emotion. Um as an emotion that is there to help us survive as a human race. Uh without curiosity we would still be putting a stick and a rock together trying to make a fire.

Um we wouldn't have found water by now. Um it is there as a survival skill. Um so when I talk about curiosity in MBT and art therapy what what I mean by that is we we don't know what a patient is going to say in session.

Um I can't predict how a session is going to go and and I don't believe I should um predict what's going to happen in therapy or how it's going to play out. Um I'm arriving at a point of discovery to be alongside a patient um as they learn more about themselves and find their own sense of meaning.

That's where I see them both being complementary cuz in MBT curiosity or as they call it the the not knowing stance as a clinician um is one where you are meeting the patient where they're at. Um you are being curious of any assumptions that they make.

Um let's say, you know, they come to a session. I know they're mad at me. Well, could you could you tell me a bit more about you know, how how your nervous system that they're mad at you? What what what is it? You know, what what if where's that come from?

How did you get there? You know, really taking the time to slow down and understand how did we get there? What does that mean to you? What are you noticing in that moment? And art therapy is very similar in what did they make?

How did they get there? What does it mean to them? What did they see? What do I see? Can we be two curious minds looking at a shared image together? So, instead of keeping mind in mind in MBT, which you also do in art therapy, where you also have a third object being the artwork that we're keeping in mind as well.

Mhm. So, in MB and I have done mentalization based art therapy groups. Wow. And mentalizing and there there is a lot of that being practiced particularly in the UK in certain health systems in the UK combining the two cuz they are very complimentary in that sense because because it's going to be where wherever the patient takes us in their creativity.

Um and there's a

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, no, that's okay. I was just going to say there's there's a quote that I again, I probably say far too often. Um It's by Wilfred Bion where he he talks about the need for that that it's important for there to be two anxious people in the room.

I don't know if you're familiar with this quote. Uh that there should be two anxious people in the therapy room, both the therapist and the patient. Um because if the therapist arrives at the session having already got an understanding of where the session is going to go, then why are you showing up?

Oh, wow.

Um like the the important the importance is of going in not knowing. Yeah. To be curious, to be open. If you're turning up to a therapy session as a therapist expecting it to go a certain way, then where is your discovery? Where is your openness?

Yeah. Curiosity, though. You're right on. To me, it's Yeah. You're Yeah, I've I've been and I'm still curious. This is why I'm going to keep now talking about this situation this uh modality is curiosity. I think what happened uh uh to many in I can only speak to my own experience here and what I've seen.

It's been diminished or taken out, especially in conventional treatment, because when, you know, the mental health system what I've seen, especially after COVID, has become, I hate to say we've been uberized, like Uber. You know what I mean? Like now they see, oh, we can make some money on these clinicians.

And so here we are, like, okay, you need to see 35 clients and and see them for 45 minutes and here is what you need to do and these are the questions you need to ask and you need to hurry up and fill out all these and guess what?

Us clinicians I what I'm hearing and seeing, I I have clinicians as as clients, too. The burnout. The burnout, the compassion fatigue, the moral injury. I mean, I'm seeing and then you throw in social media and all the other things and it's just like the curiosity is being like squished.

And for me to hear that MBT and like, what? I'm like, oh, we're going back to like Rogerian, Carl Rogers, like, hey, let's respect each other in the process and not just assume right away, like, oh, she's doing this or he's doing this or they're doing this and boom boom boom, this is what it is because that's the thing with clinicians, cuz I'm a supervisor, too.

I want to go now into the supervision because, you know, you support clinicians as a leader in higher levels of care. What do you see therapists needing most right now, emotionally, spiritually, or professionally to stay grounded and avoid burnout? Mhm. Yeah, I know, it's it's a very good question.

Good quality supervision is the first one, where it is a space to openly talk about transference, countertransference, how you're feeling as a therapist, um your own discomforts in in sessions, um things that you're reading, you're listening to. Spaces that not not just case discussions purely based on how to help the patient, but how you're feeling as the therapist with that patient.

Yeah. Um that's something that I really valued as a trainee, um that's what we call them in the UK, as a trainee therapist is how do I feel as the therapist with this patient? What's my approach? How am I feeling in the room with you?

Um what's coming up? Um really a safe space to explore that, not just to get prac- gaining some skills and tips and I I I think it is also very helpful for clinicians to hear how another therapist might approach something. Yes.

Um I remember it took a really long time before I actually heard another therapist say how they spoke to a client. I was like, "Oh, that's that's really helpful to hear." So, let's do some role-play um to build some comfort and confidence, um doing their own therapy Yeah. as well.

Like, if something is coming up for you and you're noticing a sticking point, a pattern of discomfort, don't decide that you're now just not going to work with that population. This is an opportunity to grow and overcome that, the same way you would want your patient to.

Yeah. Um rather than end the therapy or anything like that. I I think it is important for clinicians, particularly trainee clinicians, to have their own therapy. Yeah.

Um it's mandated in the UK. It's required as part of the training. I know there are some institutions here, that do, some that don't. Right.

Um it it's less common here. Yes.

Um but I do think that that is a that is very valuable, having balance, having your own way to process what happens in sessions, whether that is you know, making your own artwork after a session, um and then throwing it away, or going for a walk, like your own way to digest and to transition from work mode to personal mode, whether that's, you know, changing your clothes, um listening to something on the car ride home.

A a way to transition. Yeah. Um the other thing is, keep reading. I feel like during training, a lot of therapists do a lot of reading, a lot of education, um and I remember a lot of what I read during my training, um some very valuable material that I still look at every now and again.

Um Like what?

be Like what do you like? What is it? Like what's your go-to? Cuz to me, I have my go-to My most recommended book, uh it's funny, I actually have it next to me. Not planned for this whatsoever. Um I was going to recommend it to somebody.

Um it's Patrick It's It's quite I don't know how old this is, actually. Um yeah, it's 1985. Wow.

but it's Patrick Casement, it's called On Learning from the Patient. Okay. Listen, I never even heard of that book before, Anna. Uh the reason I like this book, and I started reading this as a trainee, and then when I first graduated, because you get a lot of supervision in your training, and then you all of a sudden go to like once a week, once a month of an hour.

Mhm. And I was a bit like, how am I supposed to keep all of these patients in mind? What am I doing with all of this material? I don't have the same amount of consistent support to talk about it anymore.

Yeah. Um not just accountability, but just reflection. Right.

Like I don't want to go from session to session without thinking about my patient, or exploring, or understanding what's going on. I need to want to take pause. Um this book um was kind of helpful in developing an internal supervisor. Mhm. Yeah. Wow, that's good.

So, who who wrote it again? I want to put it in the show notes.

Patrick Casement. Okay. Patrick Casement. What was the name of the book?

a I believe he's actually an analyst. Okay. Um I can send it to you. Yeah, I'd love that.

Yeah, that's one of one of the Your go-tos that really

go-tos. It's important

to recommend it to if I am supervising Yeah. interns um or helping train staff. It's it's one that I recommend they read. Do you supervise Are you a qualified supervisor in the state of Florida? Not yet. I I aim to be in the future.

Oh, good. We We need We We need We need Yeah, that's staying grounded, you know? Like it's important cuz I do I do hear a lot of clinicians just really tired. And and I I I think it's honestly, it's not just clinicians. I really see is that after COVID, we're now even though it's been 6 years, we're now like exploring other things and and it's like so I think it's like everybody needs a touch more grass.

Not smoke more grass, but touch more grass cuz that's the thing that's missing is like the connections or like the communities. And I love that. Um So, let's talk a little bit about um you know, for someone that is like, "Okay, art therapy.

I'm not a creative." Or they think they're bad at art or you know, what would you want them to understand about creativity as a human capacity rather than a talent? That it's a way of getting in touch with a different part of yourself that you might not give attention unless you try it.

Um that it is probably something you do without even knowing you do it. Like you said, creativity comes in many different ways. Mhm. Even if you let's say you're playing sports, or you're doing like computer programming, or um I I've lost track of industries at this point, but um you get the gist.

Yes. Um it requires yeah,

Construction, you know. Anything in my mind that requires a level of imagination, problem solving, requires creativity. I think there's a lot of creativity in problem solving. Mhm. No, for real. It is thinking outside the box, um exploring what's going on. So, I think it is an integral um part of the human experience.

And I that's why I mean, I think people probably can do it more than they realize. And and finding their way. Yeah. You You don't have to copy any what anybody else does. Find Find your way to be creative. Might be through exercise.

Might be through music, or what you listen to, or how you decorate your home, how you dress. Yeah. Um what you read. Um there may be a way that works for you. Yeah, it's it's taking the time to be curious to actually find your your way in a compassionate way, because a lot of clients and patients that come to us they come with so much guilt and shame, and stories that the world has told them, right?

And so, when they're in safe spaces like yours or or mine, we give them the ability to to be creative without that judgment. Like, cuz you know, I remember my art teacher was like, "No, you did that wrong." And I'm like, "Well, I'm not an artist, you know."

So, I I was I was a little sassy, but

Yeah. You You talking about that that that is pretty I I worked with older adults for a little while and that was one of the things that I I had to help with art therapy right at the beginning is getting over the trauma of how teachers approached them in school.

Yeah. Um particularly older adults, if you couldn't do it, you weren't in that class. Like it was you were taken out of it, you were told you couldn't do it, don't bother, go focus on math or something else.

Right. It was not seen as a space to express yourself or be playful. It was draw the fruit that looks like the fruit or don't draw the fruit. Yes. Um No, you are so right on. I'm now I'm back in high school [clears throat] in art class and Coach Clark, I'm sorry.

I love you Coach Clark if you're still alive. But

But he you know what? But it was it was like here it is, here's the curriculum, you got to do this with the flower, with the fruit, with this and that and then that was it. Like and then when I went to college I took music.

Not therapy, but music class. And you And but that's what I said, you learned about history, musicians, Chopin, you know, all that that stuff. And so I'm like, all right, that's pretty cool. But it it's just like and it like, you know, I just want to leave the audience with few simple accessible practices, right?

Because they can't afford to come to many people can't afford art therapy or therapy or they might be seeing a a therapist that doesn't understand curiosity. It's more of like uh case managing, diagnosis management, right? So to me, it's like what can we leave the audience with that that is accessible, that, you know, that's reflective, relational, that anyone listening could try this week to better understand themselves or feel more connected.

Mhm. I have two things. Uh the first one I can't take any credit for. It was something that one of my university professors told us when I was doing my masters on art therapy. And I don't know where he got it from, but I will credit him.

His name is Andrew His name is Andrew Marshall Teenie. Um when he describes art therapy to us and and trying to encourage patients to be creative, he used the phrase, "Tell them to take a line for a walk." A line for So, you've got a paper.

Just take a line for a walk. Okay. I'm going to do it right now while you're talking.

And and you know see where it goes. Just take a line for a walk and and see where it goes. Um that's a great way to start a creative process. Don't have a plan. Just take a line for a walk and see where you go.

You don't have to do a continuous line, but just start somewhere. Oh, wow. Yes.

So, I I love that phrase and I I use that a lot for patients when they're not quite sure where to start because a blank page can be very intimidating. Yes. It can be and I've had patients stare at that blank page for 30 minutes and only start making in the last kind of 10, 15 sometimes.

Um the second thing that that to answer your question that people can leave with is um kind of ask more questions. Um like if you're not sure about something, you've got to sense you're not, you know, are they looking at me this way?

Did they say that? What did they mean? Ask. Yeah. Let's shift the mind reading. Let's shift the assumptions and let's see if we can put that into a question to understand more and make it explicit. You know, in MBT we talk about explicit mentalizing.

Let's make it known in the relationship. Let's check it out. Okay.

Let's ask. Let's explore together. If I don't ask, I won't know. That's true. Ask more questions. I'm all about that. Ask more questions. And some people are are scared to ask questions because they were taught that asking a question can cause dire consequences.

So, I love that you're putting art cuz in case they can't speak or they can't talk about it the moment, you get them to give, you know, to walk the line. I love that. Um is there anything you would love Oh, first of all, I want to show in case, you know, this YouTube.

This is my life. I wasn't there at all. Not weird. No, it's great. I love it. I could do art.

somewhere. Yeah, I love I love taking any kind of art anytime there's some in the in the community art. Yeah, and that's the thing, too. Like for those is, you know, people can find Eventbrite's. People can find local art places for them. You know, it doesn't have You can learn a skill.

You can just go There was a thing I did during COVID that really helped me was art for healing. I don't know if you heard it. It's based in California and someone gets certified and she actually sat with people. It was four of us, I remember.

And then I was like, "Oh my gosh, I want to do this again. And I want to do it again." because it was a time for connection and she just guided not with exact what to do. She would ask questions and then play like classical music.

It's art for healing. I'll put a link in, too. But they they specifically say they are not art therapists. Yeah. They are not art therapy. So, but it would be cool to to take So, how do someone work with you or find you or, you know, tell me about how people can connect with you?

Yeah, absolutely. Um to learn more about Thrive, um they can go to www.gothrivemh.com. Um and there's loads of information about me and about the program that that I'm running there. Yeah. All right.

And in answered your other question, too, about other ways people can be creative. But [clears throat] there is there is definitely um I still love the skill of art and being, you know, knowing the skills behind it. And I might have a patient every now and again.

It's like, "Anna, I want to get this proportion to make this. Show me how to do it." You know, I say, "Give it a go, but if you really really want to learn the skill, then I'll demonstrate it to you." Um but then another way to be creative is is looking at art, being around art.

Oh, yes.

Go to a gallery. Um you know, you were talking earlier about people's experiences or how they feel looking at artwork. I I challenge people to look at the art and then read the information. I think sometimes we read the information first and then we look at the art.

Try the other way around.

Yeah. Still give space to what they want you to know, cuz that's really important, but just have a moment just to grow your relationship with an artwork first. How does it feel? What do you like? What do you not like? What do you see?

Yeah. What do you get from it? What mood does it have? And then read the title. And then look back at it and see does it change? Does it feel different? Oh, no, Anna. Listen, I go to a lot of the art galleries around locally, and I went to the one in Spain.

Oh my gosh, I forgot the name already, but it's the biggest one in Spain. And I remember there's going to be some artwork that will move you. Right? And to me, to take the time, literally, I had to take They actually had a nap room.

A nap room in this art gallery in Spain. And I see why, cuz after 4 hours, because you're taking in all this beautiful old art, and some of them I'm like, "Oh, I don't get it." But then my husband got it, or someone else got it.

See? And that's the thing a a human needs to understand. In art and creativity and creativity is there's no 100% right way, cuz that's creative that's creative. Like it comes out of your This is the important part because this is where I don't know if you've heard your client say this and I want to talk about this maybe a little even though I was about to say goodbye, but it's Some of my clients feel like they're going insane.

And I said many of my creative clients are walking that fine line between insanity and creativity. Right? That's how I see it some some of them because they're they're there and it's like you're the one who's starting the the the line or creating the first thing that has never been created before.

You're you know, so it does feel lonely. It does feel misunderstood. It feels like you don't because that actually shows that you are a leader or you're this is your calling and your path because think about all the really great artists. They a lot of them have stories like behind their sadness or you know, something they lost, grief and it's understanding creativity is a way to express it out in a healthy way.

Right? Yes, it is and it can be helpful to be around other creatives as well to find a community [clears throat] virtual whatever that might be. I know you were talking about COVID. During COVID I did a lot of live drawing virtually. Um which is very interesting to be able to do.

Wow. To be able to engage with that. Yeah.

platform to still feel connected Right. to a creative community. Right. So they're they're out there. Like you said, there's many sites, there's many organizations where you can be connected, but um it's helpful to be around other creative thinkers. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Well, is there anything you'd like to say to the audience before we say goodbye?

I think we covered the main essence of it. Thank you so much for for your time. It's been a pleasure to be here and engage in the kind of reminisce about, you know, where where where things started as well. So, thank you for the opportunity.

Oh, yeah. Thank you. And everything we talked about, resources and stuff, will be in the show notes, okay, everybody? All right. And don't forget to please trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you.

The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified mental health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental condition.

Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The views expressed on this podcast are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of any professional organizations with which I am affiliated. Call your doctor, 911, or 988 immediately if you have a medical emergency.

The Holistic Counselor podcast does not recommend or endorse any specific tests, physicians, products, procedures, opinions, or other information that may be mentioned on the podcast. Reliance on any information provided by the Holistic Counselor podcast,

guests appearing on the podcast at the invitation of the Holistic Counselor podcast, or other listeners to the podcast is solely at your own risk. Confidentiality notice. If you engage with the Holistic Counselor podcast by commenting or posting and are a client, please be aware that you may be revealing information that could compromise your confidentiality.

Please remember that disclosing your identity or personal details can be linked to your clinical material. As a therapist, I am bound by confidentiality and will not respond to any disclosures of this type on this podcast. I am committed to upholding the ethics and confidentiality of the therapeutic relationship, which extends to all forms of communication in accordance with the laws and professional guidelines that govern mental health professionals.

I want you to know that your privacy is of utmost importance

and you are responsible for protecting it when interacting on this platform or any other public forum. Thank you.