Therapy in a Time of Labels: ADHD, Autism, Self-Diagnosis & Finding Your Identity Beyond a Diagnosis

Hello hello there fearfully and wonderfully made human and welcome back to the holistic counselor podcast where we explore the intersection of biology, theology and psychology and have honest conversations that help us better understand ourselves. elves, strengthen our resilience, and navigate life's challenges with wisdom, hope, and compassion.

I'm your host, Diana S. Rice, licensed mental health counselor, certified integrative mental health professional, and founder of Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. Today's conversation feels especially relevant because we are living in a time when mental health has become part of everyday conversation.

Open almost any social media platform and you'll find discussions about ADHD, autism, anxiety, trauma, executive functioning, attachment styles, neurodeiversity, and self- diagnosis. While increased awareness has helped reduce stigma and encouraged many people to seek support, it has also raised important questions about identity labels and what it truly means to understand ourselves.

I first met today's guest after attending a workshop she presented called therapy in a time of labels. As I listened, I found myself reflecting on the tension many of us experience. How do we gain insight without putting ourselves in a box? How do we use diagnosises as tools for understanding rather than definitions of our worth?

And how do we raise children, support families, and care for ourselves in a culture overflowing with information but often lacking nuance. Joining me today is Dr. Alyssa Carrian, licensed psychologist, ADHD certified clinical services provider, and founder of Peace of Mind Testing and Therapy.

Dr. Dr. Carrian specializes in psychological assessment, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, learning disabilities, developmental concerns, mood disorders, executive functioning challenges, parenting support, and helping individuals across the lifespan better understand how they learn, grow, and thrive. From children and teens navigating school and social pressures to young adults pursuing personal and academic goals, her work is grounded in evidence-based care, practical strategies, and a deep belief that every person possesses strengths worth discovering and building upon.

What I appreciate most about Dr. Carrian's approach is that she helps people move beyond simply asking, "What's wrong with me?" and toward a healthier question. How am I wired? What strengths do I possess? And how can I move forward with greater understanding and confidence in a world that often encourages us to define ourselves by a diagnosis?

She reminds us that understanding ourselves shall lead to greater freedom, greater self-compassion, and greater possibility. Whether you're a therapist, parent, educator, student, or someone trying to make sense of your own mental health journey, I hope today's conversation helps you think more deeply, extend more grace to yourself and others, and walk away with practical tools for navigating the complex world of mental health, identity, and personal growth.

Dr. Carrian, welcome to the podcast finally, girl.

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for that wonderful and warm introduction.

Yeah.

Made me feel really good about myself.

Well, listen, this is what you do. This is why you came into this field, right? I think we all in the therapeutic field have a story of why we ended up here, right? And so I just want you to share your personal story and what inspired you to become a psychologist and how your journey led you to explore therapy culture and the power of labels in mental health.

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think my whole life I kind of, you know, always enjoyed connecting with other people. You know, I've always described myself as very sociable, very extroverted. So, kind of always knew I wanted to end up in a field where I'd have those interactions, you know, be able to sit across from people.

And so, um, really the initial pull towards psychology was actually my dad's a psychologist. And so kind of getting to see, you know, just um growing up, you know, what that looked like, kind of what that lifestyle was like, you know, what he got to do in some sense kind of pulled me more in that direction.

And then, you know, as I got older, kind of actually got to take more of my own understanding of like, you know, we really get to learn about people's stories, their behavior, things like that. Um, you know, the pull just kind of continued there.

I I think I've always been kind of more interested in less of a transactional type of um you know career and something more where you're really getting to know people, you know, getting to understand their story, intimate details of their life and then getting to kind of support them through it.

Um so I think that's kind of what, you know, pulled me to psychology. Um and now, you know, especially the the work that I do, you know, even more focused on the testing and evaluation side there.

Okay. And and where'd you go to school? I went to Nova Southeastern University. Yeah.

Oh, you're a shark, too. Did I know that?

Like all the therapists in South Florida.

Many of us. Oh, I didn't know that. Either they go to FAU or FIU or

or online. Uh there's so many places, but

for for undergrad and grad, I like the small, you know, the small environment there. It was such a homey feel. So,

and sticking there.

Yeah. Yeah, I love I mean I loved my experience at NOVA even though it was a trek cuz and I you know I would drive we didn't have online anything back in the day. So so it was like and I did my undergrad at FAU so yeah.

Oh my goodness. Okay. I didn't know that. That's cool. Did you grow up down here in South Florida?

I did. Yeah. Up in Palm Beach County. So NOVA wasn't too too far but you know Broward and Palm Beach are pretty different. So still felt like I was far from home even though I was only about

for real. People People from South Florida have no idea. I mean, people from not from South Florida don't understand that even though we're all like lumped into South Florida, Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach have their own personality and culture.

Yep.

I feel it. I'm on that border, Deerfield Beach to Bokeh. And the second I go visit my family that lives in Bokeh. It's a whole different vibe.

Yeah. I always know when I'm entering Broward, you know, the traffic picks up a little bit.

Exactly. Exactly. So I remember ina it was such a great um educational time and also a really great networking event. I really enjoyed myself with therap when you were um teaching us about therapy in a time of labels. You impact how social media has shaped the way clients talk about mental health.

So what are the trends that you're seeing that that you see online and the most impact how people view themselves? Because honestly you as a psychologist I think we need to make people understand our listening because sometimes people call me Dr.

Rice and I'm just like no you got to understand there's like levels in the therapeutic field and then like under the whole board right the like the licensing board you know and it's just like you have the LCSSW the LMFT the LM LMHC the psychologist the psychiatrists

and so it's like we got to have people understand we're all trained in different ways even though we all try our very best to help with mental wellness honestly. So, okay, that was so many different questions. See, I told you that.

No, it's a good point, too. Um, uh, you know, funny because I work with so many kids that a lot of times I end up just going by like, you know, Miss Alyssa, because sometimes doctor can seem a little scary for a kid, like they hear they're going to a doctor's appointment and then they walk in and it's like toys and things like that, you know.

Um, but no, yeah, certainly I think it it's shaped um, again, especially focusing a lot on the testing and evaluation side that I've kind of moved more into. Um, it's definitely shaped the way I kind of look at situations because I think with therapy, you know, you are a little bit more in the details and in the nitty-gritty.

Um, you know, versus on the testing evaluation side, I often tell, you know, because a lot of times I get parents that are like, gosh, how did I not know these things? Or like, why were these things not obvious to me? And I say, well, you know, you're dealing with it day in and day out, like you're in your kids's life, right?

Or even as a therapist, like you're hearing their everyday story. um it can it muddies the waters um a lot, you know, versus me coming in knowing there's a specific purpose for what I'm doing. I can take more of that uh I guess, you know, objective lens and kind of pull back, you know, all the nitty-gritty details, get an overarching view and then really kind of start to understand, you know, behavior and whatnot um from that lens.

But in terms of your question just in regard to you know social media I think again really when I started to look more at the testing evaluation side I kept seeing that pattern come up you know again and again where I'd be meeting with someone and it's immediately like I saw this Tik Tok video um you know or you know talking to a teen and they're like my gosh I think it's either borderline or bipolar I

don't know which one you know and they're coming in with a lot of um maybe some good research maybe some not good research, a lot of people's personal testimonies and whatnot.

So, I'm just noticing a lot more and more that clients are coming in again with some of those preconceived ideas, their own research, other people's research, and then they're coming to me and saying like, okay, where do I go from there? And, you know, sometimes people are like, I know for a fact this is what's going on.

They just want the clarification or the the validation. Sometimes, you know, people do come in just with like that information overload, but again, I noticed that pattern that a lot of it was coming through from social media. It's not as much like, oh, I, you know, I went on this research hub and read this article, right?

I saw this video, right? And then the way the social media algorithm works and then they saw another video and another video and then all of a sudden, you know, their whole feed is, uh, if you have these symptoms, this is autism.

And so I I really started to pick up on that trend and and because of that, I realized, you know, this has to be a part of the conversation. like we can't presume anymore that people are just coming toward you um you know as the the quote unquote professional and just fully going off of what you said, right?

Like they're coming in with preconceived ideas, notions. And so if we don't acknowledge that, we're probably missing a big piece of the puzzle there. And so that's what kind of got me interested into really what is the impact having? Uh because again, you know, in our field, I don't think things are very black and white.

I think they're very gray, right? And um

that's a cognitive distortion by the way. I tell people I'm like you got to learn to live in the gray because when you're living in the black and white that's what's causing a lot of anxiety and depression.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like we can't ignore it but we can't also look at it as all bad or all good. And so that's kind of what just really got me you know more diving into it um in that sense.

Yeah. So I I you know like Tik Tok and Instagram, YouTube for self diagnosis and you know what are the risk and realities of relying on social media alone because I I understand too people come to me even though I don't do test and this is why it's really important because that's my first question.

This is the difference between what you do and what I do is when someone comes in and says oh I have this ABC c and D. I'm like well who told you that? like, "Oh, well, I did the the question online and so and so's thing or the coach or whatever it is."

And I'm like, "Did you go through a thorough psychological evaluation to get the actual diagnosis that's needed?

You know this is this is how you get the true clarity because there is a lot of research and and background understanding of like people that are logically scientific minded but it's also you know and I get it because identity you think about it you work with I worked with teens for a long time before I just went with adults and I it's identity like and I remember my own stuff

in middle school and high school and whatever I was picking up from my high school or my my neighborhood or family members, right? So, like what do you think about that relying on social media as a substitute for professional eval evaluation and maybe explain to the audience like what is the difference?

Because some people like they say like they'll come in thinking I'm a psychologist. I'm like no like testing and eval there are psychologists that actually do talk therapy.

Sure. Yeah.

Right. But like tell me what you do that's different or what you do more of so people start understanding like oh this makes sense. Me watching a 30 second algorithmic is that a word? I don't even know. Um you know on and on like because the second you start studying one thing then a bunch of the same thing happens and you're like oh then it just creeps in going oh see I have this.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the first thing, you know, again, is to remember like the whole reason social media was created was, you know, to create a sense of community, right, for people so people could feel more connected, you know, talk to those relatives that live in New York and they're in Florida.

Um, you know, and over time, I think that still is the premise of social media, right? It gives you a sense of belonging, a sense of community. It does give you a sense of validation, right, with the algorithms. What what you look for is what you're going to kind of get.

Um, and so, you know, I think that's part of it, that sense of community. I think the other thing is again, you know, scheduling an appointment. Um, for example, usually when people schedule with me, you know, it takes a few weeks to actually get to sit down, right?

So, it's like, gosh, I have this burning question now. I don't even get to follow up for a few weeks. So, in the interim, let me go to something that's instantaneous so I can kind of still get the relief.

And I think that is what I've noticed as a pattern in terms of the biggest thing that people are looking for um in terms of going to social media is just one that sense of community um and that sense of validation and especially I think more with the teens and adults.

You know, the adults especially I find when they come in, they are just like I have been, you know, experiencing certain things for so long and I just so desperately want to know why that is, right?

Like maybe they've done therapy or not, or they've just um, you know, been grappling with just certain areas of life that have been hard and it's like I I finally saw this video online and then everything pieced together for me and then that's where they can go down that rabbit hole.

So, I think it's important to remember too, you know, cuz I think as clinicians, we're kind of like we know, you know, we got to go research based, we got to go evidence based, we have to look at the facts and, you know, weigh all those things out.

So, I think sometimes we come in with the lens of like the client doesn't know. Um, instead of understanding, you know, there obviously is lived experience that they're they're going through whether or not it's because of XYZ, we don't know yet. Um, but understanding that at the end of the day, I think that most people do go to social media and whatnot again for that validation, for that community.

Um, you know, I see a lot of that too with like the neurode divergent folks where things are hard in and maybe in the real world for them, but you know, they're able to go online and and talk to people that are having, you know, similar experiences to them and that obviously um, you know, can be very comforting.

So you know I think again kind of understanding that and knowing it's more for validation more for answers and then they are taking that next right step whether it is you know going to a therapist or going to a psychologist like they're understanding that these things are going on but they still want that extra confirmation.

I feel like that's something we can always you know commend with the clients because a lot of people don't do that you know they just might take that diagnosis and go and maybe it is the right diagnosis right like you know there comes to a point where you probably um in certain ways can you know probably accurately describe what you're experiencing um but I think it is great for people that do do that research to still

come and then say but I want to know for for a fact um and so in that sense you know again I think it's important to remember um that as clinicians so we have that side of empathy you know, so we don't just kind of get upset and say like, gosh, they of course they did research, right?

Um, understanding where that's coming from. Um, and then, you know, again, I think just with the lens that I'm able to take is explaining to them. I'm able to take that objective view, right? It's really hard, especially when we add in our feelings and experiences to to naturally want to move towards something that validates that.

Um, a lot of times I find myself, you know, grappling with the is it autism, is it trauma uh piece, right? Is this an anxiety response? Is this a trauma? Especially with, you know, the more complex cases. There's a lot of that that goes into it.

And I find I do a lot of psycho education for clients who are like, "Oh, what do you mean, you know, trauma from when I was five affects me now at 35?" Right. We do we do a lot of that stuff. So, I think it's us being able to come in, you know, understand the client's lived experience, but then be able to take that step of, okay, based off what you said, I can take that objective view.

I can line it up with the research. I can line it up with you know the diagnostic manual really give you that clarity in you know that validation in one sense um or the other.

Yeah. So with testing and and evaluation because I I want people to understand because you know especially in nowadays the way um schoolings have have I wish there was a different word than testing because then all a sudden there's anxiety already many many kids like testing inside.

Please explain to the audience so we break the stigma of the word testing and evaluation like what what is it? What's it helpful for? Why do we do it? You know, so on and so on.

Yeah. No, and I I always view testing really as kind of like the first step, right? It's giving you clarity so we know exactly how to support you in the best way possible.

Um you know because even your example there when you mentioned a client comes in and they say this is XYZ for you on the therapeutic side understanding okay this is really you know a true anxiety that we're working through here or you know this is really more of a function of ADHD that helps you so much in terms of walking through them in terms of their experience.

Um and so that's really what I I view testing as is it's that first step to really seek clarity to kind of get the why behind certain things are happening. Um, and with that, you know, testing should really be looking at kind of all those areas, right, of the functioning.

Um, you know, so we're looking at your whole history, your your emotions, um, your behaviors, and we're trying to pick up really on those patterns, um, and those things they see. So, yeah, testing kind of sounds like a scary word, but it's really again kind of trying to get a whole view, objective view of your life and seeing based off that, what is the story we can tell?

you know, what are the patterns that we're picking up on and how do those patterns relate to maybe things like anxiety, um, you know, or autism, for example, and then now knowing what we know for sure instead of just speculating. Now, all all those next levels of support are a lot better for you, right?

Like if you're a kid now, we know exactly what to tell the school. This is why it's so hard for, you know, you to focus. It's not because your kid doesn't want to. It's because his brain just works a little differently. Um or you know, again, this is why friendships have been, you know, so hard for you.

And now that you're an adult, just being able to have that validation of yet your brain is wired differently. That's why sometimes those situations seem more confusing. It's never been a you thing. It's always just been how your brain was. So, in that sense, I think that it gives you that sense of clarity and maybe that sense of identity um again, and just understanding yourself better, but it's really just that first step, right?

It's not like you just take this and now that's your whole life. Um It helps everyone else that's supporting you better understand you and better know in what ways to support you.

How long does testing take?

It really just depends. And this part is kind of nuanced because I think every psychologists all take it lots of different ways. Some psychologists want to be really broad. So it's like we're not going to look at something specific. We're going to look at everything and then from there narrow it down. versus other psychologists are like, "Okay, you're telling me these are the specific things you want to look at."

So, that's kind of where we're going to focus. Um, and that's kind of more of the approach I take um is, you know, let's start off and then we always do that intake and that helps clarify things a lot too, right? So, in that intake, sometimes parents come in or, you know, a person comes in and they're like, "This is exactly what, you know, I want to look at."

Then I'm starting to kind of again pick up on some patterns or things that sound like they could be something else. you know, then I'm like, okay, would you also be open to looking at this? And so my my um evaluations are usually kind of a couple sessions.

So again, we'll meet for that intake, get that overarching worldview, and then we'll kind of narrow down and focus the testing to kind of look um more specifically at what we're looking to assess, and then we kind of from there go through the results together.

Again, some psychologists prefer to take a much grander view. Um so some people will do hours upon hours of testing, other people, again narrow it down a little bit more. I try to find that happy medium of we want to, you know, make sure that we're answering the questions, we also don't want to overbear and do, you know, more than that's needed.

Um, if if I feel like we can get um what's needed through through a smaller avenue, if that makes sense. So, I think it's really just dependent. Um, but I do think the natural trend is that a lot more psychologists are leaning toward, okay, we can kind of come in with more of an idea of like this is what we're looking for

and then confirm or deny versus needing to do that whole whole big broad approach. Um, especially just with again, you know, the amount of conversations that are happening now, you know, just in the culture with mental health and neurody divergence and all of that.

Um, I think that the the testing instruments as well have kind of changed a little bit to where before it was very objective like it's a XY you either have this or you don't. Now I think that the approach is a lot more we need to be able to sit down and hear people's stories in their lived experience.

Yeah.

That's going to help us better clarify what's going on rather than, you know, objectively did they get this exact score um on a testing measure which I think is a good direction to go in.

Oh, for sure. because I do know as a woman of color that many testing um instruments did not bring in the nuance of other people's culture. It was studied on one culture and then all of a sudden you're putting that on people and I know like a lot of people that I grew up with were like you don't talk to the psychologists like

right yeah

in schools and stuff and so it's just and you know let's talk about the instruments for a minute because that's important for people to understand because remember my podcast I really try to break break stigma in churches and in the BIPO community the you know it's because they still like many humans still believe like in the old ways of things and we have to realize there are healthy old old ways of things, you know, like natural sunlight and walking and stuff, but then there's like the the instruments.

I want people to understand because, you know, I know I understand now we're speaking therapies.

Yeah.

But what do you mean by instruments? Are you like having someone come in and you're knocking them on the head with a little hammer? I mean, there's some stuff that's crazy in our field that when you look historically, you know what I mean?

So what are the instruments you use?

Yeah, good question. And um I think it varies a little bit depending on you like the age, right? For kids, you know, we really do rely a lot on what the parents are saying, maybe what the teachers are saying. Um you know, because there's only sometimes so much information we can get from a kid alone.

Um, I think where the transition really happens in terms of where we're hearing more of their story, uh, for me really is around that 11 12 year old range where then I really do want to take the time to kind of get more insight right into their thoughts and feelings.

So that might be even looking like, you know, we're going to look at those questionnaires so I can see how they view themselves, how they view friendships, their parents, you know, things like that. Um, and then obviously adults, you know, we want to rely on them as kind of the primary informant, so to speak.

So, you know, again, what is their their true lived experience? Because the majority of the time when I'm seeing adults that it come a very similar narrative, you know, I've always had these difficulties uh you know, this has always been something I wondered about, but they never fit the traditional mold, right?

So, they've gone their whole life kind of without understanding this part of themselves because again, you know, they don't fit a stereotype. And so, um, I find it's a lot of once you do actually break down, have those interviews that you're asking, you know, specific questions again, uh, based off what what the presenting question is that you really do start to see this other side that a lot of times is a lot more internalized.

Um, and you know, again, I think that's the direction that a lot of things are going in where sometimes, yeah, you can't always pick up on things, you know, just with the naked eye, but when you take that time to hear people's story, get their internal experiences, that's where you're seeing this whole other side of them.

Um, there's a a woman named Marilyn Monto and she is um a very well-known psychologist. she pretty much kind of started this whole other realm of specifically autism assessment um called the Migdus and you know traditionally autism assessment was looking a lot at those observable behaviors right again those kind of stereotypical things we would expect she was the one who kind of said yeah but there's this whole other internal side so even if we can't see

maybe stmming or the the differences in social communication if you actually ask people the right questions and get to know you know those nuance things that's where you're getting you know again that whole other side um of the coin.

And so that's helped a lot, you know, specifically with adults to understand, oh my gosh, no wonder you went your whole life because for you, you've always just been the quiet kid in class, but on the inside there was this storm of anxiety and like I don't know how to start this conversation or what are they thinking of me?

Um you know, and those types of things. So again, the measures kind of vary, you know, based on um on who who it is, the age, but I think the big thing is really trying to get that that pattern in terms of the story, like what things are kind of coming up over and over again, even if they look different than how we would stereotypically think.

And you know, to your point too, for women especially, you know, that's been a hard one. I get so many moms that bring in their daughters, you know, maybe for an ADHD assessment and they're like, I'm positive I had this, but I never got diagnosed.

And I'm always like, yeah, I'm not surprised because you're a woman and you're in your 40s and you know that just wasn't a thing, right? But again, you know, I find that there's a lot more talk about that now.

Um, so in that end, I think social media has helped because it's brought that conversation more from just us in the medical professional realm to people and that makes people right in the medical and professional realm start to think a little bit more deeply and say like, okay, a lot of people are talking about this like where were the gaps like what did we miss?

Or the cultural piece as well.

I actually just finished um you know meeting with the parent and I was asking specifically just about eye contact and conversation and the parent is from you know a Caribbean culture and so she even brought up you know it's funny you asked that because in in my culture kids aren't supposed to make eye contact with adults right like that's culturally appropriate but then we moved to America and and um you know that's not a thing right

like we want kids to typically engage in eye contact with adults so she mentioned you know that was something I had to work through with my did um you know helping them and then even with that I noticed that it was hard and so then even again there we can kind of see there was a difference between what was just culturally accepted versus um you know what might actually be you know something different or neurode divergent.

So,

oh no, for sure. And what I think working in the alternative high schools, I realized the importance of testing was a lot of kids came in and they saw were seen as behavioral problems, behavioral problems. And honestly, some of them had learning disabilities, a reading disability, math disability. um they their eyesight wasn't well or or you know and this is what's really important in the gray the nuance is disentangling

you know like it the the label the diagnosis gives you the verbiage and the understanding so then you can go and get the help you actually really need right so to me this is why when people come in like I like I get the youngans all the time like just saying oh I have this A and C or my boyfriend's got this, you know, he's this this that and I we can and and sometimes these diagnosis do overlap in symptoms.

Yes.

And so fine testing to me. So, I'm like, "Okay, you need to go see a psychologist because if you really think you have this, we really need the paperwork, it not only helps you with the American Disability Act, right, where you go to work or your school or your college so you can have that extra time for testing or whatever it is that ends up happening with a thorough psychological evaluation because you need help.

You might need help and it's okay to need that kind of help and having it and it costs Listen, we got to be honest, Dr. Carrian, like it does cost money.

Yeah. Yep.

But it's not something you're doing every day.

Yeah, for sure. And you know, some people, you know, I accept some insuranceances, some people don't. And you know, there's I think I I could see both sides of the coin why both um you know, why some people don't, right? You know, as a provider, too.

Sometimes going through insurance even though it makes you more accessible is not always ideal because you know there's a lot of hoops and insurance likes to control you know a lot of things with

red tape

right a lot of red tape and so I see both sides um you know to that coin as well but I think that's also why you know being able to move in the direction again my opinion of

not going as general and being a little bit more specific and tailoring the evaluations does help because I think that can also help minimize some of the cost because there's a reason why, you know, some people are charging thousands and thousands of dollars for evaluations.

It's because they're truly putting in, you know, hours upon hours of just sitting across from the client. You know, I' I've heard stories of some people that do like six hours of testing. You know, of course, you kind of have to compensate, right?

There has to be um you know, a balance there of paying mental health professionals, you know, what they should be paid for their expertise and all that testing stuff costs money and and whatnot, too. So again, I see that side of why some of those, but I again I I think the move is that the more people are willing to at least kind of narrow it down a little bit.

Um, you know, you can cut back on some of that testing that may not, in my opinion, being be necessary to kind of figure out what's going on. Um, and then that can help, you know, mitigate some of those costs as well. Um, again, especially because people are kind of coming in already with

what they're what they're thinking,

um, what they would like to explore and so that can help a lot just in terms of the clarity. But, you know, again, there are people that do want to take that more broad approach. This is what I think, but I I want to I want you to look at everything anyway,

right?

But, no, it's certainly an investment and I know that's probably one of the bigger the bigger barriers. Um, you know, I hear that a lot like money or or weight lists, you know, a lot of places just takes a long time for you to get your your kid assessed. um you know maybe or to for you to get assessed and I know that can be a big thing.

Schools can sometimes put a lot of pressure you know on parents. You're continuing to reach out to them like your kids having this problem and this problem and this problem and they want them to have you know some type of of label so that they can support them.

So it's it's um yeah it's murky waters to

it. Yeah.

And and it does help with an IEP an individualized educational

plan. Yep. I haven't been in the school system for a while. So, and I and but you know what I also saw? So, this is where we're going to go into next. Fine. We get the diagnosis, we get the testing, we sit there for three hours, right?

And we have now this diagnosis and it fuses with their identity.

And so here we are. I am depressed. I am ADHD. I am autistic. I am this. H how do you deal with that as a psychologist and and what do you think we you know like how do you separate that from what they're experiencing from actually who they truly are?

Yeah. And and I do get that question a lot especially you know from parents right because maybe they get a diagnosis and they're like what does this mean you know for my for my kid's future? Um, for me really I I just look at a diagnosis as that framework, right?

It's a way to better understand the function behind certain things. It doesn't have to be the end- all beall of who you are. Um, you know, we know, right, for things like depression or anxiety, you know, more of those those things are transient, right?

They can be a really big part of your life in one in one aspect and then a few months later maybe not. Um, it doesn't mean that every single part of your life has to be defined by it. But I think for us um you know that's where we come in right as therapists, psychologists, whatnot is to help people view that diagnosis more objectively.

Um you know and again what I've noticed is more so with the adults who get diagnosed later in life. Um I think they fuse more strongly to their diagnosis. I find maybe for for kids or sometimes teens may or may not fuse as much cuz they're just like okay cool.

That's just you know good to know this information. But I think the people that are fusing the most to their diagnosis and saying I am, you know, XYZ is the people that have experienced the most difficulty.

Um, you know, the people that have spent years feeling different, struggling with things, not understanding why. So when they finally do get that, you know, label in whatever sense it is, it's kind of like this light bulb moment for them where it gives them finally some language and validation that they've been looking for.

Um, and for them, I think a lot of them view that as empowering, like, "Oh my gosh, this makes sense now. I was never lazy. I was never broken. You know, my brain just works differently. Um, you know, so I think in that sense, a diagnosis can also be incredibly freeing because it helps people better take that weight off their shoulders that they felt for so long.

Um, but again, you know, as therapists, I think it's our job to kind of help them balance both, right? like maybe there is a time where they do have to kind of live in in that label for a little bit because they just needed that validation and that understanding and they just want to sit with that and process that for a little bit which is totally okay in my opinion.

Um but then you know from there okay now that we've kind of explored this and understand that this is a part of who you are or this is just what you're experiencing at this moment how do we now take this right and move forward um you know and there's there's again taking that strength-based approach right like even if it is depression you know there's a lot we can pull from that um in terms of support but

then there's a lot of other positives and strengths we can look at um you know on the other side so being able to sit with someone and say like yes this diagnosis is real you know it's a part of your story, but how do we work from it?

You know, how do we grow from it? How do we move forward? That's the part I think where therapists can really come in and be able to walk handinand. So, again, I think it's that that balance of being able to do a little bit of both.

And I think for us, we kind of know when we're teeter tottering of, okay, we validated this enough, you know, we've kind of explored this enough, now we need to move on to the next steps. Um, but I think, you know, not acknowledging it or just being like, okay, cool.

You got this now. We're going to continue doing what we're doing, right? isn't helpful either.

No. Or ignoring it like right how many people are out there ignoring symptoms

or ignoring, you know, it's it's a hard thing because you're disentangling because you don't want, you know, you're giving the the language, you're giving the diagnosis, but you're not wanting them to get stuck in it or use it as an excuse,

right?

We're trying to help build resilience. And I think that's something I'm noticing, too. Like I see the positive of social media and the label. Yeah.

Right.

And then you see the negative like what what do you see in your practice when you're when the when they're being labeled and stuff like that.

Yeah. I see I see both sides as well. Um I think initially it seems more daunting because again, you know, sometimes people come in and I've had people come in and they're like, I know this is it. And then I go through the evaluation and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's not what they think it is.

And sometimes I can get that anxiety to how are they going to take this information? like they are so convinced that this is what's going on and then I look through and it wasn't but for the most part I would say 95% of the time people are just so grateful you know they're just like thank you thank you for helping me understand because again just going back to

um the idea of just they just want to better understand themselves right and being able to just attach something to that helps um you know and so I think sometimes just you know as therapists I feel like we try to take the weight of the world on our shoulders like we have to help them do all these things and whatnot Right?

But you know, as well as me, you know, every client's kind of different and some do want they want to just understand themselves better. They want, you know, to have that support and then they want to take it to the next step, right?

And then, you know, the people that do want to just kind of sit in it and have that identify them. And those people sometimes, you know, you could do all the talking in the world and that that's not going to really change. Um, and you know, I feel like as therapists, that's not really our place to do so, right?

there's only so much kind of pushing and challenging we can do before we we kind of realize okay you know this is just how the client is you know this is just kind of how they want to be so you continue working on them to work on right they're not ready you know you refer somewhere else I think something that I've noticed too on the therapy side is that sometimes

therapists can almost maybe hold the the label too much and then they see something you know I've had conversations because I always try to collaborate you know if the person's seen any therapist or psychiatrist I always try to collaborate with them, obviously, get their perspective, you know, whatnot.

And sometimes, um, you know, I have those conversations and the therapist is like, well, if they do meet this, I'm probably going to have to refer them out, which, you know, in some senses I totally respect, right?

Because if you feel like this is way out of your wheelhouse, obviously we want to support the client best, but sometimes I kind of wonder like, but you've been working with this client for over a year, you know, even if they do have this, why does that change everything you've done, you know, up until that time?

So, I've also seen that sense on on the therapy side again where it's like certain labels seem scarier or more overwhelming and so they want to avoid and negate maybe all the work that they've already done um just because they feel like that's that's out of their wheelhouse.

Yeah. and and it's it's yeah what I see too what I saw you know in the school system when I worked with other uh mental health professionals psychiatrists and stuff

they were too too focused on the label like to a point where they forgot the humanity of the human it was more you know what was on the paper in that folder I'll never forget like when I was in the alternative when I first started and they gave me a folder and like you got to as an intern they're like you got to read this thick folder that started in second grade and I go, "Can I just meet the person first before you give me these labels?"

And and I understand like I needed to know that DSM, which they always told me was my Bible. And I'm like, "No, no, the B the Bible's my Bible.

The DSM the DSM is

the DSM is uh, you know, and I always questioned it. They were so many professors were like, you're in the wrong field because I always ask I'm like, who wrote this book?" You know, and this started with DSM3 and now we're in DSM.

Oh my gosh. I can't imagine the DSM3. Yeah.

Or TR 3 TR. I think

DSM 5 TR.

Yeah. Well, but see, this is where I have to get people to understand this is the gray. Because I have many people, including in my culture, where it is like, oh, no, you do not trust that at all. Okay, that's a westernized mindset.

It's like more. And I'm like, no, like we can learn from this. doesn't mean it has to be all that,

right?

We're made holistic. My this is why I started with biology, theology, and psychology is to understand it's a whole approach and these and the and the label. So for you, you use the DSM obviously, right? to, you know, and some of these instruments like you were talking about because I know like I had a client who um had did or has did and I, you know, he came to me and after 18 months I'm like you got to go get tested.

You got to like I'm like cuz he couldn't I couldn't hit because the different

and the psychologist after I think he sat there with him was like six hours. It was a six hour. Yeah. And he you know and he's doing well. He got the help he needed. He didn't know that was happening. This guy was in his mid30s.

Wow. Yeah.

Mathematician. Like you see what I mean? Mhm.

So I I want the audience to understand like like you know what what words can you give both to therapists and everyday listeners for engaging with mental health content online and what's practical way to build digital literacy and discernment because you know they like you said they come into our offices with and I'm glad I want them they're with they're in their own skin 247

who knows them the best themselves Right.

So my question is like what what what practical things you know to build digital literacy and discernment because we really as we now with AI

Yeah. It's crazy.

What do you What do you say?

I know. And it's funny you bring up the AI because I was just talking to another family and their their little son um does not like AI which I surprised me because I'm like that's the first kid I've heard of that's not into AI and you know for him and he's also nerd divergent.

Um he's like it's so confusing like what is reality and what is not. Um so that's like a whole you know now thing I'm I'm thinking of gosh you know what does AI mean for child development and all that you know and helping them distinguish reality and yeah so that's a whole another probably you know rabbit hole we could go down.

Um but you know again I think the biggest thing is remembering right the gray it social media is not all bad it's not all good. Um and I think that people lean more one way or the other. It's either like we can't have any access or, you know, they can have all the access, right?

And that stuff's not, you know, necessarily safe either. I think especially if you're working with, you know, teens, young adults, even kids now, um, I think it's really important that you do have an awareness of social media. So, even if you don't have it yourself, right?

Um, you know, it's good to know like what are the popular video games that kids are playing? You know, which ones are they talking to people online with and what ones are they just playing?

Do you know any? Because I think if we say the because I know roadblocks is one of them and I have grandkids. So what other ones do you hear?

Um you know ones where like you know the stereotypical like Minecraft, Fortnite, those are more kind of you know just I guess more traditional video games but Roblox is a huge one. That one gives kids accesses to bajillion worlds right and so they could be connecting with anyone.

You know Discord I don't know if you've heard that with maybe your teens that's a big like chat room that a lot of people you know go to and talk to people on that. There's tons of like little nuanced um games that I always hear just like off-hand like that, you know, certain people are really into and a lot of these things, you know, people have different names and identities and whatnot.

So, a lot of that too can be like, you know, an escape for for kids or teens or, you know, adults as well. So, I think it's important to understand like all that is out there and so in that sense, we want to be, you know, safe and help put up those safeguards um you know, for people.

Um, but you know, at the the other hand too, I think that social media can be helpful maybe, especially with connecting right with those those clients that are more into it. Um, you know, if you're able to like pull up a social media video that's related to what someone has talked about, maybe if you've seen that, then you can show them, okay, this is what you're talking.

Let's break this down together. Like what stood out to you in this video? What did you feel like you related to? You know, what did you not? So, again, I think there's pros and cons of both. Um and and you know I think for the for the client as well when we take that approach of like oh we're such a stickler that kind of right takes away the rapport versus just being like oh you're a human too.

Yeah you've seen that video. I know I was talking to a colleague who was working from home one day and her toddler ran across the screen and her therapy clients were like, you know what, this makes you so much more real, right? Because I think sometimes too, you know, our clients look at us like we're these perfect human beings like, oh, you know, we don't have any, right?

We don't have any issues. We don't have anything going on. You know, everything's great in our world. Um, but again, you know, being able to understand the gray, understanding that social media is going to impact us whether or not you agree with it or not. and you as a professional then taking some time to understand how does this relate

to my practice because I think if you ignore it completely,

you know, you're missing a whole side of the story there.

At the same time, you know, if you want to have your own boundaries at social media, I understand that as well.

Yeah. No, I mean the the I like how you say like we're humans. We we might have went to school to get a degree, tools, you know, understanding, education, experience, whatever to help the other humans. But we are human, too. Raising our kids, trying to like be in a relationship, uh, live and function just like anyone listening, right?

the and and so to me though with social media especially it's like back in the 80s in the 1900s where you're you're being raised or you're raising kids and you know you had to worry about the drugs that were out there like social media.

But you know what though it's like you had to teach you have to educate you have to understand and learn and get good quality information. Not because you know too many people believe everything that they see and read,

right?

Everything. And so how do you like I know for me when I worked with parents and family and and my older teenage clients, the ones that are over 18, so I don't have to deal with their parents anymore. Just kidding. Not kidding. But for you though, how do you um encourage parents?

like is there any materials like resources, books or whatever like to help them go forward in this because this is like as we continue like the generations having more children and AI like you're right AI it would be another hour of us sitting here to really dive deep into what we're seeing like AI psychosis and you know when AI is hallucinating and then all of a sudden putting it in in your brains are not fully developed until 25.

So, you're taking this information and then you have parents that are trusting us or what they're seeing in AI as the end all and be all of like, "Oh, no, this is backed up. Look, here's the evidence of that." I'm like, "Where did you find that?"

And it just gets very overwhelming.

Yeah. Yeah.

What do you tell your parents or what resources do you give them?

Yeah. I think one of the biggest things in terms of like the education side is that reminder, right, of at the end of the day, AI, social media, all of it, it's working on an algorithm. So, it's going to give you what you want.

And I think that's the biggest thing. Even if it started off being helpful, right? Like even if it did connect the dots for you, you know, I'm 35 years old. I saw a video about autism and why did I relate to everything in that video?

Now, your whole feed's going to be that. So, then it's almost going to be that information overload of like even, you know, again, you related to one video, but now that's all you're going to see, right? Or if you go, you know, down the AI, if you ask chat GPT something, it's going to give you what you want. it's not as objective as people think because at the end of the day obviously all of it was designed to keep us glued, you know, to it.

And so I think that's a big distinction that we have to remind right our clients of or our parents of, you know, for their kids. Hey, if your kid is looking up this certain thing, it's going to keep popping back up for them and to have those conversations.

You know, for for kids, I'm big on, you know, I think parents should be involved in and be able to put those boundaries up for them. I hear, you know, unfortunately too many stories of just kids getting exposed to things they shouldn't be because,

oh my gosh,

you know, they just sitting with an iPad and and parents mean wow by it. I don't think any parent is, you know, intentionally trying for those things to happen, right? But sometimes I think we put a little too much trust in, you know, social media is going to sift through things for me or or like YouTube Kids is it's all all kid friendly, you know?

I can tell you some story about YouTube kids.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you can. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with your um you know, specialties and whatnot. So, you know, I think it's important on the parent side to to give that psycho education and again for our clients to just remind them, right? This is all validating what you're looking for.

Um, you know, to have those boundaries. A lot of times when I get my, you know, young adults and they're coming in for therapy or whatnot, I've been so anxious lately, I ask them, "What's your screen time like?" You know, "How much time have you been spending on social media?"

And usually there's always, "Yeah, I've been spending way too much time." Right? like is you looking at all these influencers making you feel any better about your life or worse?

Um but you know we all get stuck in that trap too. I've had to you know limit my screen time many times. I've had to delete social media many times because of things like that. Right.

Yes. Pass from it. Yeah.

Right. Right. Which again I think being able to sit there and tell that to our clients um you know helps. I get a lot of parents that come in and are like

I know our screen time's too bad. Well again it's not all bad or all good, right? If screen time is a great motivator for your kids to get their homework done or do things, then use it, you know, but but don't let them have the screen before they do what they need to do, right?

Um, so I think a lot of it is just that psycho education and then again saying there's not an all good or all bad. Um, you know, for teens that's a big part of how they connect now, right? So we can't really ignore that.

Um, you know, that's even if if they don't aren't allowed to have it, they probably are still seeing things anyway through their friends and peers. So understanding that gray area, understanding it's not all good or all bad, but being able to validate those things of yes, the algorithms are going to tell you what you want to hear.

Chat GPT is going to tell you what you want to hear.

So there has to be safe, you know, boundaries within that. um you know it's okay if you need to monitor right certain things if you need to put limits on screens if you don't want you know your your kid to have xyz certain games you know or going in knowing do these kids have access to to be able to talk to people or is this just a game where they're just playing on the computer right because

that would probably change how you want to monitor them if they're just playing a game and you know what's going on that's one thing but if all of a sudden other people are allowed to plug in and you're there talking to you know Foxy man who is that Foxy man so um you know I If if you are not aware of those things, it's a lot harder for you to support your clients versus again just taking

the time to do a little bit of that research knowing like social media, internet, video games, AI, all of that's not going anywhere.

It's only going to get bigger.

No, it's a tool. So, if we ignore it,

it's either a tool or a drug,

right?

Social media is a tool or a drug. And it's up to you. It's your choice on how you want to use it,

right? And again, I think that sometimes we just take too much of a black and white approach of like it's all bad, you know, or it's all good. Um, instead of understanding, you know, the people we work with are all going to have different opinions on on social media, we just can help them kind of rail in, you know, put up those boundaries where where they need to be,

right? And it was made, I mean, that movie social dilemma was an eye openener. I don't know if you saw that movie social dilemma. Yeah.

Right. It was an eye openener and understanding the psychology of how this started how started in MySpace, right? I mean that's that's and then it went to Facebook and then it went to Instagram and then it went to Tik Tok and then who know and then now AI and whatever else is coming along.

It's just learning to to take a step back and and respond in wisdom and not react in emotion.

Yes. Yeah.

Because you know we didn't even Right.

Yes. And we didn't even hit cyber bullying and all the other stuff in school systems, but back to psychology, testing, and evaluation, how important it is. And and you're going to listen, to me, it it's important to get the the information and the language of the patterns that you might be hurting with, like suffering with, you know, and then what do you do once you get the information?

Like we we were talking about earlier, some people get the information and then they use it as I hate to say a weapon, but sometimes they do. they'll use it like well I have this and that and you know don't touch me or whatever but not everybody's like that it's just like

it's your choice on what you want to do and how you you know which way you want to go and and if you want to change because we're made to evolve. We're all all human beings from birth is are made to evolve. And I know that word is scary for some people that are in the Christian realm like you know evolution you know but if you really think about the Lord made us he made us and he made this whole world.

So even this AI and all that because I think what happens in in many um faith they they give evil too much power.

Yeah. Yeah. you know, and and so it's just like really taking a step back and becoming responsible for yourself and what do you want to do for the future and if you feel stuck, this is what mental health professionals are for. If you feel stuck, you know, do one thing that you can unstuck yourself like look at your time frame.

Like one time I had a client and I don't know if you do this and I'm like, "Well, I want to see the time because they're like, "Oh, no, I wasn't on it on that much." And in that all you look at the time on, you know, on their iPhone,

right? the screen time.

Yeah, the screen time. And I'm like, it said eight hours in one day,

not in a week.

And I'm going, what? It's because it becomes such a habit of like a ding, a bell, a whistle, and then you just do this and then you just do that. And

so it's like, anyway, I could keep going and going on this because like I said, your your uh workshop was really good, and that's why I was like I came up to you afterwards. I'm like, "Oh, you want to talk about this?"

Yeah. Anyway, so is there any like word of encouragement or Bible verse or anything you want to leave the listeners so they can move forward in their own mental health journey with hope and confidence without being defined by a label?

Yeah. Um, you know, one of my favorite favorite Bible verses, um, you know, is probably the one if you're in the Christian circle, you've heard many times, right? I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. You know, Psalm 139:14. Um, you know, because I think the big thing, especially in the faith community, right, is is labels.

Um, you know, as we talked about, right, they can be very empowering. Um, you know, they can help us understand ourselves, but right, some people can use them as a crutch, a reason to hold ourselves back. Um, you know, for me, what's empowering in my own life is just remembering, you know, we're all here for a purpose, right?

Um, you know, that that search for identity, I think, is something that's innately human. And I think as you know Christians or believers we can see it's because it it's to draw us back right to the father. But you know for other people that maybe don't have that faith that pull for for identity and purpose and why am I here um you know is still here.

You know we all have breath in our life. We're all here intentionally. Um and so you know for me that verse is a good reminder that you know no matter what I've experienced um you know life is more right than just a label or a challenge.

Um, I think it's a good reminder that we all have value. You know, we all have meaning. Um, and I think, you know, if we have a client that shares a faith, we can encourage them in in those ways. Even if they don't share faith, you know, we can always encourage clients that like there's an intentional reason you're here, right?

Um, you know, you were made for a purpose. And so, um, I think that that, you know, being able to remind ourselves and hold on to that, um, can be very helpful and can help, you know, kind of reframe that whole idea of a label and just understand, you know, again, we all want identity.

We all want purpose. We all want to know, you know, more about why we're here.

Oh, yeah.

For sure. So, if somebody wanted to work with you, how can they work with you?

Um, so, you know, my website is just my full kind of name there, peace of mind, testing theapy.com. You know, someone can feel free to call me. Uh, my number's on there.

Um, they can shoot me an email. there's a little place there where they can they can put an inquiry as well um if they just have questions or curious but I usually try to get back to people pretty quickly you know usually 24-hour turnaround there so that's always a good first step just hey you know I have a question or this is what's going on you know can you help guide me a lot of times that's

where it starts right I don't know this is going on I think I want to get tested for this or whatnot and then we hop on the phone and can kind of help clarify and guide from there

oh wonderful and so you have an office that people could come in and test. And you work with all ages.

Yes. So kind of starting as young as 18 months and then um yeah the little little ones and then um you know working mostly through kind of like that young adulthood um you know 30s 40s age right there. But yeah. Yeah. So almost all the ages.

Yeah. Yeah. So and then your office where is your office located in case

it's in Wellington. Yeah. Wellington on State Road 7. So pretty easy to get to.

Wellington, Florida. But do you work throughout the whole state of Florida too? Can you do stuff online?

Yeah. So, for some testing, you can definitely do things online. I think my preference is always in person just because, you know, that connection is just there. Um, but yeah, there's certainly things more for adults. I would say you can go online. For kids, I'm more of a stickler to I got to be able to see your kid in person.

Like, I'm not going to connect with them online. But adults are a little bit easier, you know, or teens um with the online the online aspect.

Okay. How about for someone that's out of the state of Florida? cuz you're licensed only in Florida.

Yeah. So, that's something I do actually have to work on. Um because for psychologists, you can get something called Scypact, which essentially means you can practice in any state. Um so, it's on my list of things I need to do,

but for now, yeah, just the state of Florida.

So, would you suggest like if somebody now is listening to this and saying, "No, you know what? I think it's a good idea. I'm going to invest in in psychological testing which I think runs what like $1,000 to $3,000 or something like that.

Like honestly, we need to be honest with the you know.

Yeah. Okay.

But yeah, again it it varies so much, right?

Um but I think that's an important question like for someone what are you looking to get out of testing, right? Do you want to kind of look more this is the thoughts I have I want to answer about this or do you want to go that more really broad route?

Again, you know, for your client that example you gave, he had a little bit maybe more going on a little bit more to navigate. he probably did need a heavier kind of testing in that sense of of that six hour to kind of navigate all those that trauma and and different, you know, things coming through.

But again, you know, it really just depends on the question, what's going on. I think the best thing, you know, for anyone that's listening is wherever they are is, you know, being able to have that that moment to maybe get on the phone and kind of clarify, right, what's going on.

I think that's the same with therapy. I always encourage people if you don't feel that connection, if you're feeling like, you know, this right, shop around, you know, you you have that ability to do so, you don't have to stick with the first person that you sit across.

Um, you know, so as long as you feel confident in terms of I think this person's going to help me, you know, get those answers.

Um, you know, those answers that I have been looking for. And then, you know, that can look again a bunch of different ways. That could be a lot of testing. It could be, you know, more narrow focus. But I think that's the biggest thing.

Do you feel comfortable with this person? Are they, you know, confident that they can kind of help get those answers for you?

Yeah. And look through their websites or or word of mouth or just ask questions. You have every right to ask questions because not every therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist is everybody's cup of tea, you know. Once again, here we are in the gray.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is something I don't think other medical providers talk as much about, but we definitely do. Right.

Yeah. Well,

you can shop around. It's a personal, you know, intimate even with the testing. You're not maybe with them as along, but you're sharing a lot of intimate details of your life.

Yes.

And you should feel honest,

right? And you should feel confident and comfortable with who you know you're sitting across when you're doing all those things.

Exactly. Well, Dr. Carrian, I really appreciate this and uh that you came on and we had this great conversation. And for anyone listening and made it through this whole hour with us, please do not forget to trust in the Lord. Guard your heart and renew your mind.

Bye

bye.

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