From MMA Fighter to Pastor – David Shapiro's Journey from Army Veteran to Biblical Scholar & Mental Health Advocate

hello there fearfully and wonderfully made human it's me Diana from through the valley therapy and transformed mind Consulting and coaching and today I have a guest whose journey is one you won't want to miss Davis Shapiro for first reached out to me through Christian Care Connect from the American Association of Christian counselors telling me about his new podcast the boundless Bible and of course me being who I am I immediately went into research mode I listened

to the trailer then the first episode and thought hey why not these guys sound interesting but what really pulled me in was David's Story I mean an MMA fighter Army veteran and former atheist who finds Jesus that's a conversation I knew I wanted to have David was born in New York City to an Orthodox Jewish family but over time he struggled with faith eventually becoming an atheist he spent years chasing the next thrill serving in the

military becoming a professional fighter and pushing himself to the limits but instead of fulfillment he found emptiness then one day he felt an urge to check out a local church and that that moment changed everything since then David has dedicated his life to understanding the faith he once rejected he earned a bachelor's in biblical studies with a concentration in Christian Counseling a master's in biblical archaeology and now an ordained pastor and chaplain he currently serves as

a Chapman for the City of Hollywood fire department and co-hosts the boundless Bible podcast David I'm so excited that you are here welcome to the holistic counselor podcast thank you so much then wow it sounds uh a lot better coming out of your mouth than it was when when people ask me about myself that's great thank you yeah so before we start like I want to know Hollywood California nope Hollywood Florida oh you're here I am

here I didn't know you're in Florida yeah I am in Hollywood Florida wow okay so that's a hop skip and a jump away from me I'm in derfield Beach there you go I'm yeah pemer Pines is where I live okay all right very close all right see I guess I didn't research enough all right so tell me tell me about this journey from growing up an orthodox in an Orthodox Jewish Home to becoming an atheist and

then discovering Christ is extraordinary you know can you walk through us through this absolutely so you know growing up I was an Orthodox Jewish household I didn't really know anything else in life I grew up in in SHO in Temple I went to Hebrew school um my grandparents took me to all the religious holidays to their Temple um it's just what life was uh but I never really understood a lot of what I was learning I

I understood what they said it was um but it was very much tradition and it was saying the same thing and reading the same things um and nothing really connected me to what I was learning um and I was also not the greatest kid um a quick story I didn't want to go to Hebrew school so I wrote a note saying that the Hebrew school was closed and I put it on the door uh so I

didn't have to go that day so I wasn't the most ideal student to begin with um but I just never felt that connection and I just felt as if you know if this is what it is and I'm following God and it's supposed to have this feeling that everybody around me felt and I didn't uh that just God didn't exist there was something that they were following that I didn't understand uh and I kind of started

to move away from uh from the religion and really taking on some of the school studies as hey look you know science is completely opposite of what this is saying in uh the Torah and I I don't really believe that this is you know I can believe something written 4,000 years ago I'm going to believe in something written 40 days ago go from scientists and that's kind of began my journey of of becoming an atheist and

I just moved away from the religion wow and for how long because this is something I see a lot and even in my own family with some you know I wasn't raised I mean I was raised Catholic and then a little bit of sanaria and so that's you know and then I was atheist new age and everything until later but when when did this started happening how old were you when you started questioning that and then

you were like yeah this is BS you know what I mean like I was I was a young boy when I started to question it I was 16 um when I really walked away when I said no this is this is not it uh I was 16 years old and I I really didn't come back until uh about my mid-30s so it's about 20 years that I stepped away wow okay so you mentioned that once believing

that science and Faith are at odds like that's what I'm getting like you know you're you started listening to science and you know it makes some sense some of it does like I remember learning all that um you know and now that you see them as complimentary like they can coexist so what was the turning point for you and how do you reconcile that I don't think it was a turning point as far as something I

learned I think once I accepted uh Jesus and and that's that's a story We we'll talk about in in a little bit um I think I just started to look at the science and doing research on you know what science really is and what it explains and and I think that people put a lot of weight on it meanwhile a lot of what we hear is Theory uh and another funny story I looked at you know

the movie Jurassic Park and and growing up um you know in in the 70s and 80s dinosaurs were lizards they were big lizards and all of a sudden they became Birds I'm like what do you mean they're birds and it just it didn't make a lot of sense to me and I started looking at other sciences and I go these are all theories there are laws but the what I was holding my belief in were theories

of Science and not proven fact um and I started to really research that and and researched the biblical accounts and I realized just how much science even though the Bible is not a science book how much science was in there was actually true and there was no way they would have known that three 4 thousand years ago yeah so I want to touch that a little bit more because I love science and I do know quite

a few people like like those questions you're saying in that age cuz I worked with a lot of adolescents for most of my life and that is like and that's a hard part as well because I think that's what's missing in the churches they ignore science and say it's just this thing and then when they you know a lot of these teenagers go to colleges or even a public high school for example whatever I mean and

then parents or or pastors don't even know how to talk about this anymore and they're like no this is just the way it is you just have to trust God it's kind of like spiritual bypassing like how do you like what would you say to like a pastor or a parent or even the kid that's like questioning it one of things I would say is just to kind of shock them with how much science really is

in there um there are things in levitical law that we look at and we go well this is you know a law written a long time ago and it really holds no weight today and you know you read something like when you're impure you wash under running water um and we we take that for granted not realizing that people never did this this wasn't something that was known especially scientifically uh in the 1800s Dr simal Weiss

was the first one when he was uh caring for for maternal uh maternity parents uh I'm sorry maternity mothers um a lot of them were being were being uh fell ill and died and he couldn't figure out what was going on and then he realized that what the doctors would do was do their rounds in the morning they would find all the people that had passed throughout the night so they'd be handling cadavers and then they

would go right into Maternity Ward and handle these mothers and and what we found was um once you started washing under running water washing away the bacteria which they didn't know then all of these women were being saved and there wer there weren't as many being killed um this is something that was written about in levitical law um it's an amazing thing uh something you mentioned earlier is and on your path when you kind of get

into um almost a metaphysical world I think people look at that and they go okay metaphysical World it holds no bearing we were not supposed to hold crystals and pray to them and I I absolutely understand that um but when you look again metaphysical properties with with the ancient law um one of the things that they talk about with God is you're not allowed to wear cotton and linen at the same time and you go well

where does that come from why does that make sense well what they've discovered is there are actual energies in Fabric and when you look at the the energies and the waves in fabric when you have a positive amount it it does beneficial things to your body you feel more awake you feel More Alive you're moving around being more productive when it's negative you feel brought down and you feel negative and more tired well linen and cotton

separately are one of the best Fabrics they have a huge amount and they get put off this great positive energy to you but when you wear them both together they cancel each other out believe it or not and it becomes a negative so when you look at the law you go there's no way they would have known that you know 4,000 years ago when levitical law was written at so you start to realize that science is

proving things that were already there so when I talk to people I want to show them this amazing world of there are mountains under the sea we didn't know that they were there was no snorkeling gear Back Then There are as many you know stars in the heaven as there are uh people in the population and you realize well there really are billions of people and billions of stars and just all the different things that are

in the Bible scientifically can be proven so I it just opened my entire world for that wow I can't believe you're talking about the cotton and linen thing because honestly and this is so I I I felt a and it's not like I'm on social media a lot or I'm so busy right but there was something in me going you know what I'm going to get rid of all my clothes right now and I'm going to

want to go pure I don't know why and it was like the five things cotton linen um wool yep um cashmere and I think those are it there might be one more but but you see it was weird and I'm like I don't know then my girlfriend my one of my best friends came into town and we're talking and we're thrifting we have not talked about that and she goes and she's a strong Christian woman and

she's like I don't know there's something in and she said there's something in me right now and I'm getting rid of all and I'm like what MB are you kidding me and I don't know why that's happening right now but you're bringing Dave Listen People I not never met David I have no idea who he really is I just saw him on the internet he contacted me I liked what he said on his boundless Bible with

the other guys and then boom he's talking about this that's no coincidence okay none at all so now I'm I just want to go into that rabbit hole with you with the the cotton there are a lot of rabbit holes to jump into yes oh my gosh okay so listen that's the thing it's like understanding like how how would you challenge someone to start learning about the SC because PE you know what I realize like so

many people are scared of the word science especially with what happened in the last you know few years and and stuff like that it's like you know follow the science follow the science and you know I'm not going to get into that debate but I do understand that you know there's double blind studies there's like real science where people really and it's about questioning that's where I I started getting like wait what do you mean I'm

not following the science I'm questioning things that's what science is about yeah yep so it's supposed to be what it's about the problem is that and this is with anything it's with religion as well uh people build upon other people's thoughts so you have science and no science is new it's built upon what other scientists thought about um and what they discovered and you might have a scientist that is um atheist in their views they don't

believe in God so they are going to explain away what they discovered in a way that doesn't share the glory with god um and then somebody's going to take that and they're going to run with it and now we have this debate going back and forth on on where creation Came From Evolution The Big Bang Theory you have all these different conflicts where you go well science is saying this and religion is saying this other thing

and what you realize is science is giving Theory not fact and religion is reading from a book that they believe is inherent in the word of God but atheists do not so you have this this controversy on both sides and you have to go with for me what feels right in your heart and for me the one thing I'll say is aside from the overwhelming proof scientifically I believe in God um every one of us has

a story inside of us every one of us has this uh testimony that is inside of us that can't be explained by science that's just there we all go through this life and it's not for no purpose it's not just happen stance we're not just Randomness uh there's a reason for it and if you want to believe in Randomness you're more than welcome to I'm not going to convince you otherwise but I know there's a story

you also and as soon as you open your eyes to it I think you realize that both work hand inand uh science is what God uses he uses math and science to create everything uh the whether you look at the fine-tuning argument how everything has this fine-tuning in this world any little thing that was off would cause massive destruction the gravity is off if the moon is a little bit closer the Moon is a little bit

further there's this fine-tuning that happens it it's undeniable and whether you want to believe in Randomness or a higher power I think that if you really search what's going on in your brain it's it's there I don't think people are afraid of God or the name God or following God I think they are more questioning well what does that mean does that mean I have to admit that I'm sinful do I have to change the way

that I live I don't want somebody else to be in control anxiety is all about control I think people want to have control and I understand that and and to give up control to a god is very challenging for people but I think it's in there um we say all the time there's no atheist in a in an emergency room you know somebody is in an emergency room what do you do please God let my loved

one be okay um because I think everybody truly wants at moments like that some higher power to just take away all the pain um so I think that's kind of the conversation I would have with people wow that's that's yeah that was spoton like anxiety is a form of control you know because I sit with I mean you know what I do for a living right so sit with people with their anxiety it is teaching them

how to surrender into the faith right it's going from the the flesh right and the ego into the humility and the surrender and realizing like there is something out there that we cannot put in a box and and sit there and say this is just how it is this narrow way of thinking because we do that to soothe ourselves and and to me like that's the awe of being a Believer that's how I see it like

we know I mean I know like when I look at nature even the tiniest little ladybug I'm like L Lord that is your creation you made that that like everything that you make is perfect absolutely perfect so listen you know you're a former MMA fighter and and I just want to let you know that I I have my husband and two sons that I don't understand it I don't I don't want a part of it I

mean there's my husband's like come on come watch it I'm like no that's not my thing I don't get it I but you I got to say that there's something about it that I see that's just very I don't want to say testosterone or not because there's females fighting too um but what is it like you're you know and a marshall arts instructor and you trained your body and mind for battle man like that's the physical

that's the flesh right and now you know how to train people for the spiritual which is amazing to me that you know that's all together but how do you think your martial arts training prepared you physically and mentally for your walk with Christ it's all discipline uh so my my entrance into the martial arts world was because I was uh I actually started off because I was picked on as a little kid and my mom sent

me to martial arts classes um and I just began to really Excel I loved it I excelled at it and when you excel at something you want to do it more and more because it makes you feel good and and I felt like that Journey led me into the ring uh it wasn't something I planned on it wasn't something that I was like yeah this is what I want to be when I grow up um it

was something I landed into because I was just good at it um and I continued to follow the advice of other instructors um and it was really just the discipline of if this is what I need to do in order to be success successful here then I'll do it um with my walk with Christ it is he is my instructor I'm just following his lead um I'm not sure where he's leading me but I trust him

as the expert to lead me where I need to be I just need to be disciplined enough to follow that in a way that uh would make him proud and I think that uh loving him and learning more about him makes him proud uh same reason why training my body in a way where I was going to be able to uh defeat another opponent made coach at that time proud um and and to me there was

no difference I didn't dislike anybody that I fought on the contrary I thought they were all great people it was just a job to do um where here it's not I'm not following a religion for the religious aspect I'm following a God I'm following Christ who had done so much for me it's not about religion it's about Christ so if somebody say Hey you know you shouldn't follow religion I'm like you're absolutely right don't follow the

religion follow the person who's in at the head of that religion and to me that's Christ amen amen so I'm still interested in the MMA thing because like I'm still um what kind of um mixed martial arts did you do what was your so I started off in BO Thai which is a standup version of kickboxing where you use your elbows and your knees U and it's it's a tie style of kickboxing um I did that

and I actually practice Kung Fu as well a traditional style of kung fu uh for probably about 20 years uh and from the Muay Thai which I fought for most of my career I met a guy who did Brazilian jiu-jitsu I got involved with that and then my last couple of fights was in the MMA ring uh my last fight was at the Tropicana Hotel Atlantic City you know great venue big fight uh it was something

that I love doing and I I love even more retiring from now yeah so what okay is it any how long ago was this I'm you know why I'm asking game because my husband's going to hear this and he's going to you know he loves MMA so or uh you know especially UFC and so so it's just like is there anybody that you fought that that he might know um my last fight was probably about 12

years ago okay the people that I trained with uh Tom Don mccy which is the Barnyard cat uh John Doyle uh John Doyle actually fought a gentleman who in the other side of the Ring your husband will know him uh Anderson Silva and noera was was this guy's coach uh across the ring so John Doyle was was my fighter who fought under me um so there were uh Brian vatel who F fought for the IFL um

was one of my good friends so there were definitely people in the arena that you would have known um Matt sah was in the locker rooms of one of my fights um so definitely people that he would recognize for me it was just again these were just ordinary people who right were other Fighters and you get to know it's a small it's funny because church is a big world but it's very small a lot of pastors

know each other um I have to imagine it's going to be the same thing in Christian Counseling there's a lot but it's a small world and the same thing with Fighters uh there's so many fighters but you really start to know all of them and they really are great people I enjoyed my time with all of them that's so cool all right honey that was for you that was for you all right so I know like

in something I read about tattoos right um and you said that it was a way to mask insecurities yes what role did Faith play in helping you uncover and address those deeper emotional wounds that one took a lot longer uh and that's also how I became a Christian to begin with so I had used uh tattooing as you said to cover up my body I was not happy with me I had self-esteem issues um so I

have about 40 or 45 tattoos covering a lot of my body um and I kept getting them and it was it was masking hurt and insecurities um and a lot of it stemmed from my childhood and and specifically childhood with my father uh who had caused quite a bit of trauma uh and I remember going to my first sermon ever I walked into a church for the first time and the pastor was talking about a heavenly

father who loved you and I just had this moment of there's a father who loves me and it it just paused everything and I I didn't hear anything else in the sermon I just kept replaying that in my mind and it was wow there's a father who loves me and from there I I started learning about who I am in in the eyes of God and I realized that I don't have to be ashamed I don't

have to worry about my self-esteem I don't have to spend my entire life trying not to be like the man who I was terrified of um I can just be the man that God made me and it began to take all of that weight off of me and it was no longer about seeing the tattoo it was no I want people to see me I'm made in God's image and it's the most wonderful thing ever and

I'm proud of you know my heavenly father and I've even been able and this took a long time I was able able to forgive my father um my my Earthly father and that took a long time uh but I even able to do that yeah I mean that I want to just touch on that a little bit because that's something that I see it's like you know forgiveness sometimes it's like we get stuck in the what

they did what they did what they did what they did what they did and yeah I mean listen I sit and validate those feelings with my clients like yeah like it's stinks that Dad did so and so or mom didn't do so and so or you know Auntie or grandpa or whatever family or neighborhood or teacher or whatever it is it's like I mean mean processing it like how how did you process it what tools did

you utilize because like you're going into um you know you have a concentration in Christian Counseling right so you you kind of get what I do right and you're a pastor yeah right so like to me like are there any specific tools that you've utilize or have the understanding or even Bible versus anything anything for my client that's sitting there listening to this right now in that desperation it's like I forgive them I can't forgive them

like how can you and I help expedite that in a way because you know you look back and say I spent all that time hating or being bitter or being resentful and I want to help the Next Generation to like hey let's not waste time in that victim let's let's move into now you know yeah it happened you know the radical acceptance like how do how what would you say oh I went through the gamut of

things so the first thing went to is well the Bible you know you don't forgive a few times you forgive 70 times seven times and that's what he says I'm going well it's impossible there's no way I don't forgive once let alone forgive you know 490 times and then I realize well that's just a symbolism for Perfection you're supposed to forgive indefinitely I'm going wow that you know I don't know if I can do that and

then I moved to where people were saying well forgiveness is for you not for them um you're holding this in your heart and and this is poison for you and you have to let it go I'm going no that that's not working either because the pain I'm feeling from what he did is overshadowing that um and and I I wanted I don't even know what I wanted if it was closure forgiveness I wanted something that I

wasn't getting um and then I started thinking about Jesus and everyone goes well look at what Jesus did and look at what he went through and he's going through this agonizing torture and beating and crucifixion and he's asking God to forgive them for they know not what they do and I used to make a joke I'm like well I know I'm Not Jesus because I don't forgive um and and so I I literally ran the Gambit

I'm like nothing is working I cannot forgive this man and then I started thinking about the anxiety and the control and I'm going I have all this anxiety I have this issue with covering up my body with tattoos I have all these things I lived with trying to control the outcome meanwhile I have given complete control to my father and not even thought about that I never thought about giving him the control over this I said

I want to take this control back I just don't want to give it to him I don't trust him with me and my feelings so I'm sure not going to trust him with the control over my life and my mind and that started it it didn't erase it it just started the healing process of me going if I take this away from him if I don't leave the healing part up to him he is never going

to give me what I need at this point I don't even know what it is because it's been 35 years since he's done what he's done um I just need to start trusting that God does have me in his hands I can move forward um and I can also be a a a better person by by changing my my story uh God has given us free will and I can change my story and I looked at

I go how do I give back to people God did this for a reason and I go okay maybe he made me you know go through what I went through so I can be really tough and get in a ring and no one's going to hurt me and I was like no that doesn't feel right well maybe he did it so I can be in the military and go through ranger training and and make it through

I'm like no that wasn't it and then one day I was like maybe he did this so I can connect with other people who have gone through similar issues and and just tell them you're loved that's it you might not have been loved by that person in the way that you should have it's not your fault I was I was you know three four five six seven years old when this was all taking place it's not

my fault uh but I didn't know that then because I didn't know what life was back then and the person who I trusted me to teach life did that too I I put my trust now in God and I put my trust now in the fact that I can use that to help other people and God created us really beautifully because when you help somebody you always feel good it's how he created us and I realize

that once you start to help people man you just feel great about it and and now you have a purpose for why you went through that pain and it's to help somebody that's right I mean and it doesn't mean like you have to help like become a therapist or or or write a book or whatever it is understanding first of all you have to understand your own story and who Jesus is that's the identity part that

is the identity that's I start with a lot of my clients with Psalm 139 you know it's just like understanding that and then and letting go bit by bit the situations that have caused all this emotional pain and and physical pain because I you know as a holistic therapist I understand sometimes you're holding on to the emotion so tight and now you have a gut problem and you see and then sometimes it's like I don't want

to do anything with the Bible and because I don't feel him and it's all about feelings and feelings and you know feelings to me is important because that's what protects you right it's like your brain is telling you I don't feel right yeah I want you to go but it's learning to balance all of that and and then it's the intention of your heart you know you you said something about being in the military I just

want to go in there for a little bit like you know it's it's a significant part of your story can you tell me like when did you go in what branch how long tell me about your I I was uh September 11th happened and I was like millions of people hey I'm I'm going in and I'm protecting this country and um I was enlisted into the army and said hey if I'm going to go in I

I want to be with the best and my mother was terrified at this point she really didn't want me to go I said no I'm going to go and I'm going to be with the best I enlisted with the Airborne Rangers the 82nd Airborne Rangers um and I went in and I was ready to go overseas and serve and do what I needed to do for this country and I was uh I was all gung-ho and

ready for it um and what's interesting is it's the second time that God has actually called out to me the first times when I was a kid um where Jesus specifically called out to me um and and not audibly with his voice but uh as a kid I always wore the the chain of the Star of David um and I saw people wearing the cross and I just thought it looked cooler when I was a kid

I'm like man that's really cool and it was the first time I felt like he called out to me me and then when I went into the military like anybody else you get nervous you get scared you're you're going through some extreme things and you know I I I want to be the alpha male and say it was easy and I would but there were moments I was scared um and I tried to go back to

Hebrew studies and it did nothing for me I ended up going to church at at in the Army and their church services made me feel better and I still didn't accept Christ at that point but just I felt more protected and I felt more connected and it was a second time that I felt like Jesus really called out to me like hey there's something here um but from there I was bitter at the time but really

blessed now that I was not sent overseas a lot of people that I served with were sent overseas and I was bitter because these are these were my brothers and I wanted to go with them and uh the military chose that I should stay back and work on uh teaching self to self defense at that time was becoming the combatives um so I was going to work on combatives and um ended up getting hurt hurt my

shoulder and uh ended my career in less than two years um so it was a very quick time but man was it impactful and and something that I am very honored to have been a part of um but also very saddened and bitter because I see so many people that I feel really deserve an honor for serving the military in a way that I just wasn't able to uh didn't have the ability at that time didn't

have the the I didn't have the um permission to serve in the way that I wanted to serve and that that was something where so Veterans Day comes and to my wife I'm very much like no don't celebrate me celebrate everyone else um you know let's celebrate all the ones who are real heroes and and she tries to remind me of of that I served and I I you know I get it I know it um

but that to me I'm I'm okay with that feeling I I know a lot of people that I love dearly uh that have given their life to this country and those are the guys who um and and women who I will honor a million times before myself yeah but you know what though it's it's kind of like you did it you went in and and you tried and it's like this is part of your story this

is this is what God has used to be part of your story and I still think I'm still going to thank you for your service thank you thank you because it doesn't you know you went you had the want to come and it's not protecting just you when somebody I what I've come to find out with those that I've talked to in the military they go in they want to protect the country they also want to

get away from maybe some of the traumatic experiences because I worked at Alternative High School so you know some of them inlist that's their way that's like no they'll pay for my college they'll do this they'll do that but then you know they have to learn that no this is about the collective of the country and you know and you did that so thank you and yeah I mean you better be standing up on Veterans Day

um so listen um reading the Bible three times in a month is no small fee this is what you told me right and I'm like wait what what what insights did you gain during that time that still resonate with you today and what would you say with someone to someone that's just picking up the Bible for the first time because that is it's overwhelming because sometimes honestly I I've been walking with the Lord since 2000 and

I've read the Bible I've done Bible studies I pray I'll read here and there but last year is the first year that I've ever truly read it from beginning to end and that is overwhelming especially when you get through like numbers or Kings and you're like I don't get it I don't get so tell me tell me about it again it's it's it was my story so for me picture if you saw the first four Harry

Potters and you never saw any of the other ones and you you saw it over and over and over again and then finally somebody gave you the last few you would be like man I need to know how this ends that was me as a Jewish boy I read the Torah and I read the Old Testament over and over and over for years and I knew it and then all of a sudden it was here's the

ending and I was believing it and and all in and I was like I need to read that and then I was no I need to read it again to now connect my old Faith with my new faith and then I read it a third time to understand those moments where you're going wait a minute I have no idea I had no idea that this pointed to Jesus I had no idea that this is what this

story was about so for me it was the excitement of connecting a and z um and and it was listen if you ask me to read it three times now in a month there's no way it was then now it would be absolutely impossible but for the moment my my emotions and my adrenaline were just at a all-time high and I was like I I need to know how this ends I need to understand this yeah

so what would you say to someone that might be Jewish or like that kid that is like okay I'm learning it and and and you know and I I've um interviewed or know of Muslims too they know their book I mean I had a I had a great conversation with a Muslim young man one day and he said what's sad about Americans especially the Christians is that they don't know their book and then he he literally

gave me his Quran and it was English and um oh my gosh just forgot the language sorry guys I yeah and and then he's just like Point anywhere and I'll know it and so I did and he knew it and I would do it again and I do it again I'm like Oh my and then he challenged me he did he's like you guys are biblically you know you believe in believe in this religion but you

don't know the words and I'm like oh that was so convicting so tell me what you would say to someone for that you know for the Bible you know like understanding well just because this came up W with this boy I would have said the devil knows our book better than anybody it doesn't make him a Believer so knowing it isn't as powerful as understanding it and having faith in it so it's one thing to know

it and and there are people that know this I have professors that I know that I am blown away by the amount of knowledge they have but they don't have the faith that a a Christian should have um so that's the first thing is if you read it as a book to try to memorize it or understand it the first time out there's no way it's going to happen um but if you have faith that the

things that are going to jump out at you are there for a reason then you're doing okay don't don't you know when you go through the genealogies and you're saying well this is awful and this is boring and you know you go you know I don't understand this that's okay and if you want to skip it for now skip it um nobody is you know stand behind you as a teacher going wait wait wait you skip

that you're in trouble there's going to be a test on all the genealogy it doesn't matter that that will come but if you have the belief and faith in what you're reading those words will pop out and you're going to read these stories and go this touches me in a completely different way and then when you do it again and again at all different ages and this is why it's the Living Word it speaks to differently

every single time um what I wouldn't recommend and sometimes people do it is they kind of go eenie me my they open it up they pick out a you know a section and they read it the problem with that is you're now reading it out of context and you're pulling words to match whatever your opinion is at that moment um and the Bibles that stretch you not to agree with you so if you're reading it out

of context you're it's very easy to go oh it says this I I always knew that no maybe you should read it again it's probably trying to teach you something different um so I would definitely read it where you're reading it in context you're reading an entire book at a time you're not jumping around um you don't have to read it in order there are some great websites that tell you which order they recommend you read

it in first um they say you should read the New Testament so you learn about Jesus first um I think when you have faith if you're just reading if you're opening up in your reading you're doing a great job the understanding the memorizing all that will come but it it doesn't matter because what's in your heart is is really what counts and if you're if you're reading and your heart is saying Jesus I love you it

doesn't matter how many how many verses you know you're you're a million times better than than the professor that knows that entire book and gets nothing from it yeah so is you named or you said that there's websites is there any like resources that have helped you in in the beginning times of you becoming a Christian um people uh webites are rough because you never know who writes them and where their opinions come from right what

I have found and I still do this to this day I go there are some really popular people out there one of my favorite people in the entire world John Lennox is just an absolute brilliant apologist um he's hard to understand unless you come from that world he is a brilliant mathematician I believe from Oxford um who's a Believer he's brilliant but what I choose to do is go to people who are unusually uh successful in

what they do so I will go to preachers and listen to them from India why because there are places in India where you're not allowed to preach so if you're preaching not knowing that you could be killed for that preaching yeah it just hits differently it's a whole different level that you're getting um if I am going to listen to Old Testament you know information I might go to a rabbi still and talk to Rabbi who

has quite a bit of knowledge and information so I go to the university in Jerusalem and I'll talk to of those professors um now I know that a lot of people aren't going to be jumping around and also might have the uh open doors to have conversations with people from you know all across the globe um but if you find somebody who has a love for the Lord and and has some education behind them and I

don't mean education as far as they went to the best seminaries um but they did some learning they're just not pulling out verses and saying whatever they want for their own personal gain um you're going to get something out of it it's hard to point to a website there are you know William Lane Craig is amazing and you know you have you have some of these speakers that are so Dynamic and so amazing and you listen

to them and you're instantly sucked into what they're saying um they are who I aspire to be um because of of not the information they have in their brain but how they convey it to people those are the things that I look for when I when I try to understand something because you know with I don't know a million pastors out there in the United States you're getting a million different you know yes translations of the

same passage and this is one of the problems people have they go well if this Bible is so clear why do there a million people that have a million different translations um and they would be right and wrong they'd be right in the fact that yes there are a million translations they'd be wrong because we're all different personalities also we're me to be different so it's okay to read things differently because we're all different walks of

life with different experiences and you know if you have somebody with anxiety who came from one part of the world and somebody with anxiety coming from the other you can't treat them the same they're individuals you have to hear their story and know how to connect with them individually and so I think people accept that for everything other than religion when it's religion it needs to be exactly the same for everyone and that's just not how

we're made yeah yeah and and so like how would you encourage someone that might be Cur curious about Christianity you know like someone that might be listening that's like hm like you know all these other things are not working but you know this Jesus like why is there so much controversy why are there a thousand billion different denominations of one why why why you know and they're curious or they have a lot of church hurt because

I do work with a lot of spiritual abuse religious trauma Church hurt spiritual bypassing I could keep listening on and on and on and that's causing the anxiety that's causing the depression that's and and I you know it's like it's trying to get them to understand like yeah these are the narratives and they made you feel a certain way but how do we get our power back to able to like and not deconstruct because that's the

biggest movement I see right now is the deconstruction of Faith to me it's like okay let's disentangle and reconstruct without losing your walk with Christ 100% if you are somebody who doesn't know Christ never did really want to know the story um I think that starting a starting point is yes obviously reading the Bible but then having a conversation with anybody even even a a a brand new pastor um will have something to teach you uh

we say all the time a third grader can disciple a first grader because they are two grades ahead um so you don't need to get the topend mind you don't need to go to a John Lennox when you're a brand new believer or somebody who is in interested in learning um if you have the interest you're already there you're right there you go hey I'm curious about this let me start opening up a conversation with friends

family anybody who's just a little bit ahead of you you're going to get some great Knowledge from um and a lot of it has to do with testimony not logic if you're looking for logic you're not looking for Christ you're you're looking for the testimony and you're looking for the heart and you will find the logic in it over time but if I start off with you know this huge philosopher and what he says about it

I'm going to be more lost than if I just try to read the Bible um so if you're brand new anybody who's just a fraction ahead of you is perfect um if you have church hurt there is no one spot to fix all um except to know that your church hurt comes from man not from Christ never it will never come from Christ if you start to read things in the Bible you go hey tough things

hey the Bible does not like women that's not true show me where and it says well Paul says for all the women to shut their mouths in the church I go okay what's the background what's the historical background of going that's going on here because that's not really what he said again we have to read in context what did he really mean when he said that and then somebody goes oh I didn't realize that's what it

meant because my ex-church or whatever said this yes I get it somebody who was listen I've been to some pretty bad doctors in the past who you know I said hey I'm I'm I have flu like symptoms and they're like no you're fine just let it pass two weeks later I have pneumonia um it doesn't mean that all doctors are bad it means that one happened to not be a great one I don't stop going to

the doctor I just stop going to that one um so when you have church hurt yeah I I agree don't go back to that church don't go back to that Pastor if you don't feel the the the connection with Christ where you are go to a different one uh when I first accepted Christ I actually went to a Catholic Church a Lutheran Church a Baptist Church uh I wanted to see where I'd feel the most comfortable

and and I went from there if if you have church hurt reach out somewhere else that you're going to be able to express how you feel in a really positive way uh listen one of the reasons we made the boundless Bible was for that reason we have three of us who are completely different all pointing to Christ so when you listen to us talk none of us have the same story none of us have the same

belief where it's started from but we all end with Christ and that's that part of it's okay it's okay to disagree it's okay to to not know everything it's okay to be confused by it just don't stop learn the answer because you know if if you stopped if the first time you started learning how to walk you fell down you don't stop learning how to walk you you you just start doing it again and again and

eventually you're up and then eventually you're running faster and it's just how how much do you want to run if you want to run with Christ and the opportunity is there you just got to keep going yeah and and just be care I mean you got to be it's Discerning that's why it's really important for you to open up your own Bible because that's what's happened to so many that I've realized like that's been homeschooled or

that's gone you know with a lot it's because they're born and raised in these situations and that's what they believe that's the actual the word of go like you said it's like no like read it in context understand it understand the leader like when you go to a new church like what would be the things that you would look for is he opening up the Bible or is he talking about politics you know is he is

he opening up the Bible and pointing to Jesus or is he like using one verse to say okay now give me your money like yeah it's absolutely and I love movies but when you go to a movie are are you watching the movie to learn about the history of religion I hope not although a lot of people have taken things and listen I love it for the entertainment purpose but The Da Vinci Code theologically is not

accurate but if people take it as accuracy um then you're missing the point of the entertainment part of the movie it's not to teach you um so be aware of where you are if I'm watching Tik Tok and and I'm trying to get my information on God through Tik Tok right you're not going to be getting it that's not where your theological you know confidence is going to come from are there good things on there absolutely

are there truths on there absolutely but you also have a lot of false and and you don't want to hang your learning and your relationship with God on that right and not only learning and relationship with God but therapy oh yeah Tik Tock therapy I'm just like oh where did you learn that oh on that 10-second video on Tik Tok and I get it like therapists are out there doing but these are little bite-sized things and

it's just not a everybody's looking for a you know that miracle drug or that you know and it's just like no like it's hard work we got to learn that we have to be responsible for ourselves you know so I want to know my my wife has anxiety and and she's having a moment and I go well just calm down oh thanks that that was helpful I didn't realize that that's all I needed to you didn't

get MMA I definitely would have if I did that but it's it's that same thing it's that one snippet of oh I just want her to relax I'm going to say just calm down there's no way it's going to work you need to learn yeah absolutely yeah and and learn to just that's the thing what I love about being a disciple of Christ it's it's pretty easy it's like love him and love others and and learn

and and be responsible for yourselves and and learn to be in community because that's what we're meant to be in in community in in this world he created it all and we all have this these gifts and talents and you know it's like we have to move forward with what we have good or bad good or bad so a little bit about the boundless Bible I want to know why and how and who are the other

two dudes uh how and why I have no idea um just I have a men's group that uh there are two gentlemen that go there uh Javi and Jason and they're in become incredible friends of mine um but what we realized is that we started talking in this Bible study and they come from different areas of of Life uh Jason is very uh poetic and abstract and just a genius he's brilliant uh and jav is this

loving faithful guy and loves the Lord and we just started talking and we realized that man we really have these different perspectives all leading to the same all leading to the same place and what we've realized that all these other guys um have been asking us about our Journeys and why we feel a certain way and these these conversations just became really fruitful um and then we started having conversations with our wives and with their friends

and and we just realized that there's what we provide is something a little bit different than other podcast so other podcast take a question here's the answer this is my perspective and that's kind of it um we have this discussion where we agree or sometimes disagree and why we disagree and it's hopefully hitting people there that go I never understood that I don't agree with that and then somebody says and they go oh I'm on his

side and then the next week they're going oh wow no that guy is is wrong I'm on this guy's side now um and I just it's a really great way to just have a conversation about the Lord but in a way biblically that you can see people can be different and have different opinions and it doesn't make you wrong right right okay that's interesting are they um are they pastors too so they're not one one of

them actually went to Seminary and left Seminary uh based on a really bad uh conversation he had with a pastor who again that church hurt kind of led him down the wrong direction wow um and and has come back to the Lord um and and is just a a brilliant man and his name is is Jason um and then Javi who might as well be one it's it's really just a a you know at this point

an ordination paper because he has all the knowledge uh for the Bible but he is a creative um he's a creative person he's a videographer he was an actor in California again a crazy story with him uh absolutely loves the Lord and just has Faith the way I believe everybody should have this this childlike faith of just this is the Lord I don't need all the answers I just know that I feel this is the Lord

um and then you have me who has this background of of this you know Jew that turned atheist that turned scholar um and and my point of view is always kind of from the Pastoral and academic standpoint okay and are all three of you in in South Florida we're all yep we're all in South Florida how did I not know I guess I did not look I didn't know that I thought you were I don't even

know where I thought you guys are tber Pines we're all here oh wow okay we're all brow County yes that's so cool all right so you know as we wrap up you wrote a book called staying in faith yes right um would you touch on that a little bit and then just share with the audience anything else you want them to know before we end this episode sure so I wrote a book it was my first

attempt at writing a book uh and what it really wanted to do is I wanted to be a testimony uh from God to the world and this wasn't I wasn't writing for god um it was my expression of what God's testimony was and that's the Bible and it is the truth and the facts of the Bible and it some apologetics in it and it has some faith in it it has some Theology and some philosophy and

it really was all the words that just hit me that God was putting on my heart as a testimony to us and when people go well what is the Bible and most people don't even know what the Bible is um I look at it as it's not a story about us it's not a story just about God it is literally God's testimony of us these are my people this is what I created this is how I

love them these are all my plans that I had for them to reconcile with me because of the love that I have for them um so it really was just this attempt at me putting that out there um and it it was like apologetics when I got into it I said I want to learn about how to defend the faith to other people and it became a foundation for me this book was I want to put

this book out and help people who are struggling with their faith to stay in the faith which is why it's called staying in the faith and what I found is it was this therapeutic book for me um to just get this beautiful word from God of of what we mean to him and what he put out there in his word for us to find and it ended up just being the most beautiful thing for me and

and it is selfishly a book for me now um if anybody reads it I I hope they get something out of it but the more I read it the more I get out things for myself um and I just found that with everything in My Walk of Life With God is you do it for other reasons and then God goes no I'm going to bless you with that as well um there there's this really great song

it's not very well known it's called say so um and it's by Rush Moore and it is this song about how you can bless others by being a blessing yourself so it's blessing others with your words giving people a word of you're doing a great job I love you thank you um just these these wonderful affirmations that we can give to people every day that there are times we wish we could have and I think that

that that's what I would leave it with is yes we are called to love God and love one another but that's not just a feeling it's it's aot it's emotion it's a movement I need to tell somebody hey I really appreciate you I I I I listen to what you did di I listened to your podcast before I came on and I really appreciate you and your perspective and I love the words that you're giving to

people people there are so many people out there struggling and they just want to be told that they're doing okay they're on the right track they will get better things will get easier and that song is is all what God is about which is just I love my people I want them to be okay I gave them purpose I gave them life I breathed it out of me into them and we're doing okay and and we're

loved and I just want to I just want that to be the last thing that people remember is you're loved and and we appreciate you and I appreciate you Diane I really do I apprciate yeah just just having me on the show and and showing your love to people the way that I believe God has called us to yeah thank you thank you very I try my best to to to live more in the spirit than

the flesh I try I try I understand so um where can people find you if they want to reach out or listen to your podcast or buy your book I mean like yep the boundless bible.com is the easiest way to find it um the boundless Bible is on just about every uh you know podcast platform um but if you wanted to look online you know you'll find my email there as well you can get in touch

with Jason or jave uh but the boundless bible.com is the easiest way to get in touch with me and um you know I would love it I I love to have conversations with people I can go on forever I'm sure you know from this conversation we we can talk for hours and hours um about other things to absolutely yeah so I you can reach me anywhere you want okay I really appr appreciate that David um listen

eventually I would love to beat all all you guys in person you know like we're in the same county and stuff like that we'll see I mean there's no coincidences at all no I think that'd be great and I know that the guys will be up to it all right well thank you so much for coming on and listener do not forget to please trust in the Lord guard your heart and renew your mind bye and

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you