Psychiatric Deprescribing & Women's Mental Health: A Holistic Approach with Dr. Amy O'Donnell, M.D.

Hello there, fearfully and wonderfully made human, and welcome to the Holistic Counselor Podcast. I'm your host, Diana S. Rice, a licensed mental health counselor, certified integrative mental health professional, and founder of Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching. Whether this is your very first episode or you've been journeying with me since episode 1, I'm truly grateful you are here.

This space is for counselors, therapists, faith-based professionals, and curious listeners who want real conversations about mental health, healing, and walking in purpose. On this show, we explore how scripture, neuroscience, and holistic tools can help you live a more integrated, connected, and peaceful life without bypassing the hard stuff.

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Now, today's guest came to the Holistic Counselor podcast by divine referral, literally after our powerful conversation in episode 58, how scripture gets weaponized and how to heal with Rebecca Davis. She said, "Hey, I know a few people who need to be on your show."

So, fast forward a few weeks and I sat down with Dr. Amy O'Donnell. And let's just say Rebecca was right. Dr. Amy O'Donnell is an integrative psychiatrist with a heart for psychiatric deprescribing. You heard me right. Deprescribing and women's mental health. She studied medicine and public health at the University of Miami.

Woohoo. Go Miami. trained in psychiat psychiatry and the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and pursued additional integrative training at the University of Arizona Wheel. While how do you say his last name?

While Center for Integrative Medicine, but that's not where it ends. Amy is a lifelong learner and a proud self-proclaimed nerd. Nerds unite. Woo! She's currently undergoing psychonamic therapy training at Columbia University and completing a fellowship in integrative reproductive mental health. Her passion helping people make informed valuesbased decisions in psychiatry exploring all options not just medications.

So, if you've ever questioned the onesizefits-all model of mental health care, or you're curious about what holistic psychiatry actually looks like, this episode is for you. Dr. O'Donnell, or you told me I could call you Amy. How you doing? I'm so glad you're here.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for that lovely introduction. I appreciate it.

Yeah. Well, I'm really excited because you're you're a unicorn.

You're rare. I mean honestly I hear more and more psychologists psychiatrists are speaking up but like for you to come on and really help us understand and learn this is invaluable. So let's just start with your story. What led you to focus on integrative psychiatry and deprescribing and maybe explain what that is.

Yeah definitely. Um so I had my psychiatric training at a very um interesting time in medicine. was during the COVID pandemic. Um, so I really got to see firsthand some of the strain that our our health care system and mental health care system as well was under.

Um, and that sort of started me questioning some of the status quo about um, you know, everything that I'm told. I'm just sort of taking it at face value as being the truth. Um, and further on in my training, um, I started to become just sort of personally disillusioned with how some of the appointments were set up in terms of the time that I had available to spend with people, some of the um, approaches that I got taught.

It it sort of occurred to me that I was trained really well to add medications to increase medications to address side effects of medications with other medications and not so much emphasis in my training on how do we pull back on medications? What are the different options for pulling back on medications?

What is the science behind decreasing medications? Um and that sort of pushed me to ex look into more holistic alternatives just to medications. I also had I think you mentioned an interest in in therapy as well. So I I see that as an alternative an important alternative to medication as well.

Um

yeah that that was kind of the starting point. I saw a really um great talk by a researcher in the UK, Mark Horowitz, who's kind of one of the leaders of the deprescribing movement I'd say internationally.

Um and that that was an additional eye opener.

What was his name again?

Mark Horowitz.

Horowitz. Okay. I just Well, now I'll go into that rabbit hole. So that's what I want to know. All right.

He um he's done a lot of research behind hyperbolic tapering. um was actually kind enough to work with me on some presentations that I've given on medication deprescribing in and SSRIs. Um very smart guy, way smarter than me. Um so much to learn from him.

He does a bunch of talks as well.

Wow.

Yeah.

Cool. So, I will I will search him and find them and maybe put a couple of things in the show notes for those that are interested in learning about this because honestly, like many women come to me saying, you know, I've been on meds since I was 14 or 13 and I want to have a baby now.

They're 24, 25 because I only see 25 year olds to 35 year olds now. Um, women and so they come to me and they also know I'm holistic and integrate, but I'm not a I can't mess with their meds. I have to fi work with their psychiatrist or find a psychiatrist like you, which I'm so happy I found you cuz it's you and a couple of other people that I know that are psychiatric nurses that are very holistic and integrative.

Well, I have to just say medication has its place. I am not anti-meds, okay, people. I'm not. It should be though the last resort, not the first. And I know in the insurance conventional model, it's always been the first. That's what I saw in down here in Broward County when I was working the alternative schools.

And it just that frustrated the the I'm not going to curse the poop out of me.

Yeah. Frustrated the something out of you.

Yeah. Well, it it frustrated me so much that this is why I I went down to try to figure out other ways in helping the people that were coming to me. You know, I understand that we might need meds for some things, but sometimes when we dig deeper, like uh Dr.

Bessel Vanderok says in his book, The Body Keeps the Score, how he realized, right, psychiatry. So, you know, they're saying like, I want to have a baby now or I, you know, am I having to be on this for the rest of my life?

And I mean like I I have to walk gently with them because I'm not here to guilt or shame or say one way is the only way because we are so wonderfully and fearfully made right and our biology, psychology and theology like I always say is very unique to each one of us.

So where can a person even begin Amy?

Yeah. So, I I think that they, you know, have to start with reaching out to a trusted expert or maybe someone they know knows a trusted expert. The the challenge with psychiatric medications is stopping cold turkey can often have pretty bad side effects both for you and if you're pregnant for your child.

Mhm.

Um, so I think the the first step is trying to find someone that you can talk to to have a discussion about the risk versus benefits of what role should medication be playing in my life right now given that I'm pregnant or planning to become pregnant.

I mean, there are certain psychiatric medications, depose a great example, where you don't want to get pregnant on that medication. There's a a huge risk of fetal malf formations.

Wow. child. So, for example, if you're on that mood stabilizer, you're thinking about getting pregnant, definitely talk with a PCP, a psychiatrist, someone to help discuss alternatives with you.

Okay.

Um, I mean, there are other psychiatric medications. SSRI is really commonly prescribed for anxiety and depression. um they have risks in pregnancy, but I I think the thing that's often not highlighted for people is there are also risks to untreated anxiety and depression in pregnancy.

So when I'm talking with patients who are either pregnant or thinking about becoming pregnant, it's not just what are the risks of being on the medication, it's also what are the risks of if we pull back on the medication and your anxiety, depression, etc. get worse.

What are also those risks? And a lot of times I'm working with people to find the lowest possible dose that they can be on while maintaining stability.

Yeah.

And augmenting or or supplementing or adding some of these more holistic or natural alternatives to try and get them through their um pregnancy and postpartum time period with as little medication burden as possible.

Yeah. like like what when you say alternative or holistic you know this could you know this word when I say holistic it brings out different things in different people some people will will be like oh you're so woo woo like you don't understand science at all and I'm like no that's not what I mean like you know and so it is it has a the word holistic already has a stigma to it

some in a good way and others in a way where it's just very confusing for the listener for a person that doesn't under really understand. Can you just tell me like what you mean by that?

Yeah. So, I'm really glad you brought that up because um sometimes when talking with colleagues or other people that they kind of have that impression as well that you're not practicing evidence-based medicine or psychotherapy. Um and from my perspective, that's that's not true.

Um I believe in looking at research to help inform um what are the options that people have. I think though that um in traditional I can speak to the psychiatry side. In traditional psychiatry training um there's not as much emphasis put on things besides medications.

Um from my perspective that's due to the insurance model where psychiatrists are kind of become these pill mills of the the thing that you can do that no one else can do is prescribe medication. So that's what you're going to get trained doing.

Um the reality is that there is actually evidence there are actually studies for some of these holistic and natural alternatives such as supplements such as botanicals such as alternative medicine approaches like acupuncture movement um based therapies like yoga taichi etc. There are literal studies suggesting that these are approaches that have benefit and sometimes equal to or better than some of the traditional approaches we have.

Um, a lot of times people aren't big pharma companies aren't making money off of that though. Um,

and I think for for me I think that's part of the reason why um they're not maybe as widespread or um talked about. Additionally, if you're seeing someone in a traditional insurance-based appointment, the doctor probably doesn't have a lot of time to to talk with you.

There's, as someone that's been in that situation, there's a lot that I want to say. I have to kind of shorten it down to the amount of time that we have because I'm seeing patients back to back to back.

Yeah. So, it's it's an unfortunate I think you've pointed to system that we're in that kind of creates this environment where um there's not as much incentive to to be talking about alternatives besides medications, especially if you're a psychiatrist.

Yeah.

And I see that in not only psychiatry but any medical model. uh we are very conventional westernized and we forget that there's a whole entire world that's been around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years that um and and some people think millions and billions but you know I'm not even going to go there but it's it's trying to understand like you can't make money on things that were created in nature or in my belief

system that God created right I mean I remember the first time I ever heard someone talk about I think It's willow bark that aspirin was made out of or something like that, right?

And so, well, willow bark is a free plant that you can and so somebody decided to take that and then make it and then bear aspirin and boom, like that's a money-making machine. And I get it. Like, we live in this society of the when I say capitalism, people automatically are going to think that I'm like talking politics, but it is where we are and this is how it is.

And you know the next I see it in biohacking now money-making machines like everything that's coming up with uh social media right it's just like oh like whatever algorithm you're in you're either going to be in that medication algorithm or the oh you need this next supplement al you know are you having 20 white bottles or you going to have 20 orange bottles.

Yeah. So, it is I'm trying to get the listener. I'm trying to empower and that's what it sounds like you're doing too, Amy, is empowering the human being that comes to you to make informed decisions to benefit them so they become productive members of society, right?

Yeah. I mean, I I I think you're exactly right. Um, it's I really try to think about what are what are the values of the person that I'm seeing? what are their goals? You know, maybe they don't even want to be a productive member of society.

Maybe they want to, I don't know, be a

Yeah.

do do something else. You know, whatever it is that they're trying to accomplish.

Um my goal as a provider is to present them with my understanding of the whole range of options that they have to try and get them towards that goal as well as an ability to discuss with them in a um comprehensible manner. what are the risks and benefits of each of the options and then give my advice about these are maybe the top one two three things that I would suggest um and and here's the order that I would do them in

because it can be a bit overwhelming once you realize there are so many options to try and organize yourself about what are we going to approach first versus later on.

Yeah. No. Um, that makes a lot of sense and it does take time because we are also living I mean there's people that don't want to do the actual work. They want the quick fix. And this is why. I mean, we have this model like, "All right, I have this headache.

Let me fix it." But we forget that our body's telling us something. And the headache could be because you're dehydrated or you had too much caffeine or the stress of your job or, you know, we can name a thousand different things.

And we don't take time to sit still with ourselves to really do a deep dive of going, okay, I just don't want to feel this pain or I don't want to feel the sadness or I don't want to feel this anxiety or I don't want to feel I don't want to feel.

We're just wanting to numb out. And um sometimes actually the obstacle is the way.

Yeah. And I I love that you said um people some people are looking to numb out or the or the quick fix. Um, and I I definitely have seen kind of people looking for that approach, which makes sense. Nobody likes feeling miserable. Nobody likes feeling sad or upset or angry or irritable, lost, confused.

Those are really uncomfortable feelings. And we we do have medications that can take that away for a time period. You know, I

as a doctor, I can I can sedate you so that you don't feel anything. I think the issue is though that that doesn't actually solve the crux of why the issue was there in the first place. And then there are short-term and long-term effects to taking that approach of just trying to kind of push down, ignore um emotions and and why they might be coming up.

Yeah. I mean, and this is why it's important that we find our team because guess what? Like I have gone through a lot of different emotions. Sometimes when you get to a place though where you feel like you don't want to live anymore and hope is gone, that is when you really really need to reach out and not sit there alone with those thoughts.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the part of the challenge when talking about mental health can be um sometimes there's not a distinguishing between feeling sad, which is a normal human emotion and will happen. Tough things, challenging things happen in life. it's normal to feel sad.

And then kind of on the other end of the spectrum where you're persistently sad, nothing's getting better, you feel hopeless, it's impairing your ability to function as a person. Um, and those are two way different situations from my perspective.

Oh, no. For sure.

I I agree. You know, when you're on the other end of the spectrum, you're you're having thoughts like you don't want to live, you want to hurt yourself, you've been feeling horrific for weeks to months. Yeah,

that's definitely reach out for help.

Yes.

And and that's the thing I want to tell because now that I've been working with women only like I worked with adolescence for a long time and then for women it's like we have to get to a space when you do feel like that to understand what is happening in your system because listen if you just lost per se a a family member close family member of course you're going to feel like crap for a while

you know but if everything's going well and your job's going well and everything's going fine and and you hear people going what what do you have to be sad about?

That's where it's a chemical thing. That's where we have to call Amy, Dr. O'Donnell, and figure out what the what's going on. Is it your testosterone's low? Is it is it, you know, something else? It could be I have no idea. Right? And this is where we have to really start empowering our our patients or clients to really figure out what's going on without giving up or or you know losing hope.

And so you know for those who trusted the system and follows the and follow the rules and everything, how do we support them in healing without shame or fear?

Yeah, I think that's that's a great question. I think a lot of times the the people I see the the people that have kind of believe in a more holistic or natural approach um a lot of them have kind of come to that place by being burned um in other situations.

Yeah. feel incredibly unempowered, misunderstood, sometimes even harmed or hurt by other approaches. And for me, it's not necessarily about, you know, blaming, oh, all those other providers or whatever, they're bad people. They did a bad job.

I think it's it's more about trying to understand

how that essentially trauma has impacted the person and their ability to, you know, work with me or trust me. Um, I think it it makes a lot of sense for people to feel nervous or hesitant about working with someone and and trusting them and telling them about their life and what's going on and believing that they'll have potential solutions that, you know, we can work together on.

So, I I think for me it's it's really about if if you're if you're a person that's been in that situation, trying to find um a provider or a person where you feel understood, you feel like they want to listen to you. They want to take the time to really understand where you're coming from and kind of make decisions with you based upon your values and what you feel are important.

Yeah. So, what questions should a person ask?

because that's a hard place cuz I know that I I have people contact me like for example yesterday I have a nurse practitioner saying hey do you still do family therapy and I'm like no I don't and they're like oh my goodness I was telling her all about you and I'm just like but I'll try to find because I have a network I created a network down here and now you're part of my network especially when

you start working in Florida right um which we'll talk about that later uh um but that's the importance because you're People have lost trust.

They have they've been burned by systems. They've lost trust. They don't know where to start or how to end this like end the you know with the medication. Like some of them think oh my gosh am I going to be on this for the rest of my life like and I don't want to.

Some of them are gaining weight and they don't want to like the side effects of a lot of these medications they're not being reassessed by their psychiatrist. they get it or they go to a community mental health clinic, right? And those and they're burnt out.

Like I I worked back then and I saw I'm like, "Oh my gosh, these these doctors are like, you know, they're they're trying to do the best they can with the knowledge they know and the resources they have. Um especially in community mental health.

So then you get the prescription, you get it filled, and the next thing you know, years go by, you're on this on this and and you really don't get reassessed as as I don't know what word I should use, healthfully, if that's even a word.

But you know, what are the risks of staying on psychiatric meds long term when no one is reassessing it?

Yeah. So I mean there it depends on the psychiatric medication. I mean uh some of the like the weight gain is a a common side effect of secondgen antisycchotics. So things like um ailifiadone alanzipine cerakquil um those are often used as augments in treatment of depression for things like schizophrenia or as mood stabilizers and bipolar.

Um so those are you know on the on the upper end of some of the riskier medications. There can be profound metabolic side effects which you can see visually through weight gain. Um there's in the older population an increased risk of mortality. Some of the more commonly prescribed medications like SSRIs.

Um in the geriatric population for example increased risk of falls, hyponetriia. There's emerging risk of with long-term use impacts on cognition fracture risk. I mean, they're

I could kind of go on and on about.

Yeah.

And benzo, like I hear about benzo all the time, Amy, and it breaks my heart. Can you explain a little bit about benzo, please, and what that means?

Yeah, they're it's a it's a class of medications called bzzoazipines, um, which to be honest are are one of our best treatments for anxiety in the moment. There's probably nothing that I can prescribe for you that's going to make you feel less anxious than a benzoazipene.

The issue is though that long term um they have risk of addiction. So you can develop a benzoazipene addiction. Um there are risks of problems with cognition, problems with falling. Um after a certain time period you develop dependence and so you can have withdrawal when you come off. um there are in most cases they're not great long-term treatments for anxiety because you develop that dependence.

So short term, yeah, they work really great, but kind of back to what we were talking about earlier, they're often not addressing kind of the underlying cause of why is the person having anxiety or insomnia. That's another thing that people use them for because they can be quite sedating.

Yeah. Um, and you know, there there will be certain patients where it is an appropriate medication. In my experience, they're they're overprescribed and people aren't necessarily aware of the both short-term and long-term consequences of being on them.

Yeah. I mean, what I see is they take it and with a glass of wine and I'm like,

well, yeah, the the alcohol is um acting on some of the same receptors that the benzoazipene is. So, it's kind of a a a rough combination. It's a kind of a dangerous combination. Um, and I think the the other thing sometimes that people aren't aware when they're starting medication like this is the withdrawal is um can be very dangerous.

I mean, if you're on very high doses of these medications, you've been taking them for a while, if you stop cold turkey, you can have a seizure and die.

Yeah. Um, so like the message earlier, please don't stop your medication turkey. Um, I I think part of the reason I like talking about this is I just think it's important for people to be aware of the potential side effects and so when they're coming up with a plan with their provider that, you know, we're thinking about a short-term plan, a long-term plan, and really understanding the risks of of any decision.

Yeah. How long do you think I mean I know it depends on each person but say someone like I was mentioning earlier like I'm just thinking of a handful of my clients where they started at 13 14 now they're 26 27 married and wanting to have babies and stuff how long does it take to start deprescribing usually and until they're at a point where now they they are able to feel comfortable enough to do what they want to do. right?

With with having the child or just feeling better with other non-farmaceutical affordable or even supports. Can you like walk me through that?

I mean, I I think the number in my head where if people could come to me a year out um from when they're planning to become pregnant, oh, that would be amazing. For me as that just gives us so much time and flexibility to be really thoughtful and conservative about any deprescribing that we're doing, making sure that anything any approaches we're utilizing um in place of that are effective that they're addressing whatever issues the person is having.

That being said, you know, I I work with people wherever they're at when they they come to me. So, we just sort of we make the best of whatever situation they're in um and and choose the best option that's going to work for them.

Mhm. So, is there anything free supports that you can recommend right now or anything that's affordable now or, you know, I know that we can't say things like that cuz we could get ourselves in trouble so clinically, but I'm also just wanting to give hope because now I mean, we've just put it all out there and I want to the listener to just have maybe first steps or anywhere they can research or if there's a website.

I do know like I think I mentioned to you when we met um before coming on um Dr. Roger McFillan who started the the clinical conscious collective which I'll put in the show notes and he kind of calls out um this whole thing.

I mean, it's not calling out, but he does. He's very It's called the Radically Genuine Podcast, and I've had him. He was on episode 18, which I will put on the show notes, too. But he just made me see things in a whole different light as a psychologist.

Challenging. He was challenging situations going, "Wait, what? No. Huh?" And so, do you know of anything or what would you say to a person that's like, "Okay, I I'm in Arizona or somewhere where you're not licensed, Dr. O'Donnell. Where do I start? Is there a place I can start?"

Yeah. I don't I'm not sure that I know of kind of a specific website that's going to teach you all about um integrative psychiatry. I think

um for me when I think of what are options that are kind of free or cheap, I think mindbody interventions. So apps that you can start using to learn about mindfulness, meditation, um trying to go to a class for something like yoga or tai chi.

Um taking a look at your diet. You know, there are small simple things you can do in your diet that can have actually profound impacts on your mental health. So something like decreasing the amount of processed foods that you're eating and trying to eat a more um healthy diet which has um fats that has carbohydrates that has proteins that are well balanced throughout the day that has vitamins and nutrients that you need.

I mean small things like a multivitamin supplement or fish oil supplement are generally safe in pretty much everyone. Um, and there's there's good evidence that those two supplements can help improve things like anxiety and depression.

I'm aware of that it's called I think Open Path Collective, which does

yeah, cheaper therapy for people that can't um afford higher cash based prices or maybe don't have um access to insurance. Um, if you're on more of the just struggling with burnout side rather than sort of depression, anxiety, not being able to function, even just reaching out to friends, trying to find a supportive community um can be really helpful.

You know, just finding a place where you can connect with people and feel understood.

Yeah,

it it's a start. Some suggestions um for people to think about.

Yeah, I mean, I know we have NAMI, the National

National Alliance. Thank you.

Mental illness, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's Nami. I mean, there there are things out there where you start and it's and the thing is you have to start, you know, because you don't feel like it. Like, honestly, people don't feel like it. And I get it. Like, you don't.

But guess what? This is a life ordeath situation for you. And so, just go ahead. It's called behavioral modification. Like, you gota It's kind of like sometimes what I do with my clients, Amy. They think I'm It's so funny, but they're not feeling well.

I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna do a little bit because I'm CBT, right, and behavioral modification." So, I'm like, "All right, we're gonna sit here now. I'm gonna put the timer on and for 30 seconds, we're just going to smile at each other." And they they're like, "What?"

And we're sitting there like this and they're with a fake smile, angry as anything, sad, they've been, you know, they're depressed. And within 30 seconds, they just start cracking up because I'm sitting there like this. grilling and then next thing you know then we write what's happening in the system.

It's very it's a powerful tool that I utilize with the hundreds and hundreds of tools that I have um because I have to not being prescribing meds. I have had to for decades find ways to help the the client in front of me to get them moving through it because you have to go through it.

Honestly, that's another thing going through the situation because when you get to the other side, which so far I've seen 99% get to the other side, okay? And I'm so grateful that I've been allowed to and honored to journey alongside these humans to see that, hey, you know, like you're not stuck.

You're not stuck. So, you know, what's the first step toward reclaiming identity and wellness?

Yeah. Well, I kind of based upon what you um were saying earlier. I think sometimes there can be kind of resource overload that people get where you say, "Oh, how do I get help?" And then people just throw, "Oh, you can go to this website or you can talk to this person or try this app."

Um, it can be a little bit overwhelming. I think um it really resonated with me what you said about just taking the first step. I think um it's really about finding an achievable small first goal that you can set for yourself and then working towards it.

Um rather than kind of getting overwhelmed and lost in the array of information about all the options and things that you could be doing. you know, choose choose one thing that you think you can realistically accomplish, work towards doing it. Maybe um get some support, get some accountability from someone that's going to check in on you to make sure that you do it

accomplishment and accomplish it. And then that's the one small first step that you've done towards getting better

that help sort of build your momentum. And and that might be something as simple as reaching out to to see a provider, you know, calling a couple people. It might be something like calling a friend and and going out for for coffee or choosing not to eat the McDonald's for dinner that that one night, you know.

Yeah.

Make small improvements and sort of gain the confidence that you're that you have the control and ability to make changes.

Yeah, for sure. So, you blend medicine, psychotherapy, and natural approaches beautifully. Can you share a powerful story of healing where it all came together?

Yeah. So, I I uh I try not to say about specific patients just cuz I um I want people to feel comfortable when they um come and see me that I'm not going to talk about them in a way that other people might um know who they are.

I think a lot of the the powerful stories I have of kind of combining all of those different approaches are are a lot of my deprescribing patients where we're decreasing the medication. As we're doing that, we're starting this process of really understanding what does that mean for them to be a person that is not relying on medication or dependent on medication. what does it mean about their autonomy, their sense of identity, their understanding of what was their problem even in the first place?

And so exploring that through a lot of therapy. Um, and then using supplements and some of these lifestyle modifications in order to start building this foundation. I I think of it like a a foundation of resiliency where you can kind of take some of the hits from life but not get completely knocked over. um and sometimes using supplements or botanicals to manage some of the withdrawal side effects that people will have when coming off of the medications.

So, I think that's a situation where I'm really using a lot of the different um styles and and tools and approaches all with one person.

Yeah, it sounds like you're trying to build a window of tolerance, right? And I think each each human has a window of tolerance depending on their personality, the village that raised them, their resources, and that's what it is is really trying to find your window of tolerance.

And having the whole all the emotions like I use the emotion wheel, which I'll put in the show notes, because we have to understand it's okay to have them all because God created them all. And as a believer, I believe in Jesus Christ, right?

And so even Jesus modeled all emotions. He cried. He was angry. He was uh you know in despair.

I mean there's so many things that we can learn from our faith as well. and um and just try to implement and to understand who you are and your purpose because I truly believe every human being has a purpose and a story to tell because we are raising generations that are coming up right and that's the thing we sometimes the generation before blames the next generation or like here fix them and we're I'm turning around always

working with adolescence going you're the one who raised them like hello and we're blaming them But anyway, it's like learning to take responsibility individually for ourselves, our stories, and understand that your story has meaning and purpose.

No matter where it is, no matter if you're curled up in the fetal position, right? And and you're so depressed that on the other side of that depression, that lamentation, that story is going to help somebody else once you get out of it.

You have to go through it. I mean, through the valley. That's why I named it through the valley. Like you got to get through the valley to to go to your mountaintop. And we all have gifts. Dr. Amy O'Donnell's gift is very very different than mine.

Even though we kind of I you know, I'm so happy I found her because I I she understands what I'm trying to do here and I also understand what she's trying to do. But that's the thing like we're meant to be in community together with our gifts and talents.

So, you know what saying all that, you know, it's easy for me to say that because I feel okay right now. Like I've gone through my I I've shared my story on my blog and and on my podcast. Um, and I'm sure that they're going to there's going to be another time I'm in a valley again.

It is like what what do you think you know that are I don't know the stigmas or the myths that keep people so stuck or afraid to to move forward or to you know if they are on prescriptions to like let it go or or if they need it to go into therapy like what do you think is the fear?

Well, I I think probably the fear is the the fear of the unknown. Um I think a lot of people struggle with feeling out of control. um the uncertainty and definitely signing up for a process, a journey of something like therapy is it's really a process of being quite vulnerable, putting yourself out there.

Um exploring a lot of different aspects of yourself. Some of which, you know, might be uncomfortable, you might not like, might be really hard.

Um so I I see that a lot. there's a lot of understandable understandable kind of hesitation towards engaging in a process like that. Um on kind of the more biological side, I think a a common myth is this myth we have of the chemical imbalance that um you know especially people that were started on psychiatric medication like 20 30 plus years ago.

Um there's this theory that depression, anxiety are caused by an imbalance of chemicals in your brain. Um, that's really a massive oversimplification of what medications are even doing. Um, and the different causes of something like depression or anxiety. It's not just a chemical imbalance.

Um, but I I think that explanation that some people were given or or that they buy into sort of lends itself to a sense that there's something inherently wrong with me

that a medication is fixing. Therefore, I cannot come off of it. Um, and it in my view that's that's really not true. Um,

in many situations people are able to completely come off their medications. In most situations, people are at least able to decrease the amount of medication they're on while still um maintaining functionality and and benefit. Um so I think for people who are kind of ready to do things differently, um it's really about trying to find the motivation to to put yourself out there and consider other perspectives maybe than you had before.

And also really trying to be curious about, you know, who am I? What's actually going on? Um, and try and be open to opportunities to do things differently in a way that might actually be really beneficial.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to because I know when I was working in community mental health or the alternative high school, you know, you have different diagnosis. So say schizophrenia or psychosis like what would be I mean the first thing as a psychiatrist is to stabilize right and and the system.

Um, but what I've seen as well, cuz I've had a couple of teenagers come in after they've been bakered and hospitalized, but they never asked the questions of why did they get to the psychosis, you know, once I got in, they just were Baker Act and then medicated and they come to me with five, six different,

you know, prescriptions and the parents are like, "Help, help." They don't know what to do. they're trusting the system, you know, like how do how do we deal with that with the different diagnosis out there because there are people who truly truly are suffering, you know, we still don't understand completely the brain.

We're still learning about the brain, right? And some people, and I'm just going to go into sometimes in the faith community, they think it's a demon. Uh-huh.

You know, it's a demonic presence or that the person that has this situation is going to be like this for the rest of their lives. What would you say to them?

Well, I think it it kind of speaks to this idea that there's something wrong with people that are struggling with mental health challenges that they need to be fixed. Um, and I I think for the the most part with the proper kind of supports and approaches, people are able to pretty naturally um get to a place where they feel better.

Um, sometimes that can involve medications in certain situations, sometimes even lifelong medications. Um I think though and this is really your realm um it's about trying to to find a place of sort of self-compassion. Um you know how can you understand the struggles that you've had and the interventions and approaches you have needed to take in order to sometimes even just survive

on the better end kind of thriving. Um, and how can you understand that in a way that's meaningful, that allows you to feel like you're contributing to your community, that you have a purpose in life. Um, when I when I hear things like, "Oh, there there's a demon inside of you."

Um, I I can imagine someone feeling very guilty. Um, feeling very hurt, confused, lost. Um, and yeah, it hurts to hear that that people are being given that message. I think there within everybody, there are parts that we like more or less than other parts.

Um, from my perspective, trying to have a a compassionate, curious approach is usually more helpful to getting people feel better than kind of um, ostracizing or or demonizing them.

Yeah, exactly.

It is the fear of the unknown like you said earlier that you don't know or you're not educated enough to understand a complete the completeness of how a human is made with like I said earlier like the science of the biology right and then you have different faiths that believe in different things and then you know and it's it's hard because sometimes you know I could see where if we've tried every every tiny thing every and I'm talking about psychiatry all the things and there's still something going on.

There could be some kind of spiritual influence. I'm not going to deny that at all because I've seen it and experienced things like that myself. But many just want to hurry up and find the answer and that to help their, you know, uh to soothe their own anxieties or their own.

So, let's just blame this one thing. And little do they know like in blaming the one thing, you're giving that one thing the power instead of understanding that our creator the of the universe is so much bigger than that. And sometimes we have to do the research or the work to find out because you know that's where the true help lies is in in learning about you and others in compassion and love.

I mean that's who I think the person the the entity the spirit of of Christ is is try you know modeling to to me anyway. You know, I don't know. Everybody's got their own mentality of of how they see things. So, you know, Amy, like being integrative and holistic and and understanding like the mind, body, spirit connection, you know, what what are your final words to the people that are listening?

What would you like them to take away from this episode? and and tell them also where to find you and when you're coming to Florida.

Um so I I think um my goal whenever I talk with um client or a person that's struggling is to leave them with a sense of hope. Um, and a lot of times as a as an integrative provider, um, just being able to express the multitude of options that are out there for being able to get to a place where you're feeling better, where you feel sense of meaning, purpose, balance in your life.

Um, I think can give a a sense of hope. Um, you may feel stuck now, but there are lots of different ways that you can feel better. And even if you've tried a couple of different ways, even if you've been given a message, oh, this is the answer.

Um, sometimes that's not necessarily true. Um, and I think there's also hope because there's a lot of things that people can do on their own where you don't need to come and and find someone like me. There are a lot of things you can do through movement, through connecting with community, through nutrition that are all approaches you can be empowered to do on your own.

Um, if you do decide you would like to see someone like me, um, you can go to my website, naturesflows.com. Um, I practice virtually in Florida and Pennsylvania. And as you, uh, pointed out, I'll be moving to Florida, uh, early next calendar year. in northeast Florida somewhere.

Haven't figured out where.

But your license come to me. No, come to Palm Beach or Broward. It's No, South Florida is its own entity and state. I don't know if you want to come. You got you're gonna have to learn to drive really really like Yeah. Anyway, and hurricane season.

I have love for South Florida. I train I train at Miami um all the way from the the Keys up to Jupiter. So

Oh, yeah. I've had the full full experience. Um, and I have I have love for what is South Florida.

Yeah. Well, good. Because and that you know what? Let me just tell you something for anyone that's listening outside of South Florida. Her experience of going from Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach County. That means she's culturally competent because many people get trained in places where there isn't a big multicultural system. like South Florida is a very unique, diverse, amazing place to really really learn about people from all walks of life.

And I'm talking about all walks like from different countries and everything like that. So, right. So, especially you being at uh U of M like right there like doing your your you saw some stuff and down in Miami.

Yep. It's it's a it's a whole new world down there. Um, and you're right, it was an amazing place to train because I got to meet so many different people

um, similar to me, different for me. Um,

so important in mental health, too. I think just starting to get an understanding of the different ways that people approach mental health, understand mental health, some of the barriers within certain cultures and communities towards even seeking help or or what that might look like.

Um, yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. No, I mean that's something I've done training on.

I mean, I train others cultural competency um without the politics and but just to get them to understand and mo a lot of my um episodes are on that subject because of what I did experience and see and how I challenged my professors or psychiatrists that I was working under going, wait, you're not taking in consideration that they're from this country and in their country this is what happens and that's how they see things. you're just hurry up and prescribe or hurry up and just diagnose.

And that's the probably the challenge I did from day one at at Nova Southeastern University. My professors were were like, you know, you know, the DSM is our Bible, right? That's what they were they teach us. And I'm like, uh, no, the Bible is my Bible, but who wrote this DSM?

And then I'm reading the names, and that was back in the day. Now we're on number five. And I get we need boundaries, right? insurance model is conventional. We need to have where we diagnose and stuff like that. But to me, I think everybody's just at this time and day and age, everybody's just diagnosed with either uh adjustment disorder or PTSD.

No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah. I mean, there there are some profound limitations to DSM and those diagnoses um and where they can get us in terms of understanding what's going on and how to

treat it. I think it's most helpful for research in terms of just trying to create sort of people that have roughly similar issues and then trying to study what's helpful and not helpful. I think

just it's so much more

right

and nuanced than

a DSM diagnosis.

I agree. I agree and I get it. I mean this is how it is like we learn different things at different places with different theories and I mean that's where we're at in life. So anyway, um any quotes or verses or anything that you would say that encourages for our last words together?

Um I don't know if I have a quote off the top of my head. I think um starting with curiosity and compassion is probably I think two of the most important um kind of things that people can have within them that are incredibly important for getting to a place where they feel better.

You can try and think from that perspective. I think you're off to a great start.

I love it. Yeah. Curiosity. Always ask why.

Right. Why? and then uh go from there. All right, listener. Thank you so much if you've lasted this long with us. I appreciate you. And remember, trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and renew your mind. Bye. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you.

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