Therapist, Mother, CEO: Leading Through Crisis and Cancer

Welcome fearfully and wonderfully made human. It's me, Diana from Through the Valley Therapy and Transform Mind Consulting and Coaching and the host of this podcast, The Holistic Counselor Podcast, the space where faith, science, and healing collide to help you reclaim your peace, your purpose, and your power.

Now, if you're a therapist, a mother, or a high achieving woman trying to hold it all together, you're in the right place because today's episode is a conversation you do not want to miss. I was on my usual threemile walk, decompressing from the day before when I heard this therapist speak on the entrepreneurial therapist podcast, and her story stopped stopped me in my tracks.

She was raw, honest, brave, and immediately I knew I had to invite her here. Kristen Mvich is a licensed clinical social worker, the founder of Outsmarting Anxiety and OCD, and a business coach helping therapist moms work smarter, not harder. She's raising two toddler boys, expecting a baby girl.

And right now, she's walking through every mother's worst nightmare. Last fall, her 17-month-old son was diagnosed with stage 4 neuroblastto. Since then, Kristen has been living between hospital rooms and boardrooms, showing up for her family while leading with radical courage. But this episode is not about tragedy.

It's about resilience in real time. It's about the holy tension of helping others while healing yourself. It's about what happens when the healer needs healing and how you still find purpose in the middle of the unknown. So whether you're listening in your car, on a walk, or between client sessions, I hope you let this one meet you where you are because this conversation is about more than just counseling or cancer.

It's about how we keep going when life humbles us and how God still shows up in the middle of the mess. So Kristen, it's an honor to have you on my show. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me and that introduction was beautiful and I appreciate you bringing light to the resilience on our journey um and meeting us all where we're at in the moment.

Yeah, Kristen, listen. It's raw because for me too, like I mean I think we spoke and we touched base a little about and people know on my journey because I'm pretty open as well. you know, I've lost a lot of people starting when I was about eight years old to cancer.

And so that's what stopped me when I heard you and you were just so raw with I forgot the name of the host, but I listened to her podcast, but uh I was just like, man, I want to have a conversation with her.

So, so let's start with you. Okay. So, for people that don't know you, um can you just share a bit about your journey, who you are, what you do, and what brought you into this work? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much.

So, yes, so my name is Kristen and I am a mom of two toddler boys and and have a baby girl on the way as you said and I have been a therapist for over 10 years. um and started off my journey in the therapy world um in agency work and in nonprofit work.

Um and then transitioned over to private practice and I have um built my private practice into a group practice um a small group practice now. And it was not until I became a mom. I always knew that helping other therapists in some sort of way would be a part of my journey and very intriguing and interesting to me.

Um, but it wasn't until I became a mom that I knew what the avenue was going to be for me.

And when I did have my second child, I just kind of very quickly knew that my my own business had to shift into something much more nervous system friendly. I needed to slow down. I needed to change course in terms of how I was showing up previously because typically I'm a kind of a fast-paced person.

Um

most of us are like honestly like most of us have uh boss babes, I don't know, leaders, whatever you want to call us, but if you have a group practice, I'm thinking like girl, you're way ahead of I I touched that for a second.

I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. That's boss. That's boss lady right there.

Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I just knew that I just I you know I needed to slow down in some way. And honestly that group practice piece was part of how I have done that. And I'm so grateful for it because

as you as you mentioned so I have a toddler last uh last September my 2-year-old so my middle child was diagnosed with stage four cancer and it's been a journey since then. And even today as we speak, he's in the hospital and um getting some very hard on his body, hard on his mind and his spirit treatments.

Um but he's responding and I'm so grateful for that. And something that has really truly helped me is to harness, you know, what what's outside of my control into like what's inside of my control. And for that that for me that's been my work.

Um, and so that's something that has been a focus for me since he got diagnosed. Not because, you know, work is important in the grand scheme of things, but because it's been my outlet um, in a way that has helped me to remain grounded and feel normal so that when I go back to him, I'm his mom and I can show up for him in the way that I need to.

And for my three-year-old who whose life completely flipped upside down as well. Yeah. I mean, it's the whole family, you know. It's like a a ripple effect, you know? It's like one drop and then, you know, like it just ripples through the whole, you know, the community that you're part of the village because that's what I always say.

It's like we're all part of a village that helps raise us and surrounds us and stuff.

And so can can you explain what because I I don't I mean I there's so many different kinds of cancers and I know with my family lineage it was you know my sister had well let's start when I was around 8 years old my friend had um oh my gosh it just leukemia and then later on it was my dad who had unknown um origin like they they put him they opened him up and it was They didn't know where it started and he was filled with it and when one one month he passed.

My sister struggled 14 years with cancer and she it started in the breast and then she went into remission and then it went into the bone and then it was in this it was just this and then my mom literally just listen it's like what she was diagnosed.

We went to the emergency room and nine days later we were out of the emergency room and two days she was dead. So, so Kristen, like I get it. And so having a child though that's like,

you know, like and then I'm hearing more and more more and more people, you know, and and I and I get it. It it's like I don't want cuz I could live in fear of like, oh, genetically people are like, "Did you check your breast?

Did you check this?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I know." But I'm not going to live in fear. I'm going to live in faith.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really powerful. And I think um and I think what you were kind of asking like a little bit about his his type of cancer and first of all

I am I am so sorry because of course as someone who's been really affected myself like it's just it's indescribable

how much it it changes you and changes your life and um it's just completely unfair to everybody who is involved and everybody who's affected. Um yeah um my son has stage four neuroblastto. So that typically is the origin of that is in the adrenal glands.

So he had a huge um three plus inch um tumor inside of his belly region. And when he got diagnosed that day, they could see that mass, but then also um lesions in his not his brain, but his head. So like in the bones of his head, three of them.

And then we found one on the spine, not in the spine, but on it. And then one on his pelvis and one on his ankle. So there was about seven tubers plus it was showed up to be positive in his bone marrow and his in his blood.

Um and so since then I you know it's been about eight months and um he his treatment in particular neurobblasto treatment um first of all typically they're diagnosed when they're young like my child's age around like 18 months is is a typical origin um like an onset of when it shows up which is so hard and devastating because you are walking through life and you have seemingly like a really healthy um child who you know previous

to that we were at the like three days before that we were at a children's museum and he was climbing everywhere.

You know there was not really any other sign

other than he had a longlasting black eye.

Oh. And you know, kids go to daycare, they um my kids were in daycare, they they have accidents, right? Like they they fall down. Like I didn't really think anything of it at first, but of course a black eye goes away and this one wasn't.

And it was like going in and then it coming back and coming back stronger and you're like, what's going on here?

Um and so we took him to a pediatrician and honestly what they said was um well he doesn't have like an infection in his eye. He doesn't have like pink eye basically is what they're alluding to. So he's fine. He just has a black eye.

Um which is a very common what now since being in this world I've learned it's very common for parents to get dismissed in terms of their concerns for their kids.

I obviously not just in the cancer world but in general. And I think it's comes down to pediatricians are they're generalists right and so like they're not trained in what to look out for exactly. So, we took him to a um what I had learned later was that my husband started googling what it meant for a little child.

Don't tell doctors that. They hate

But you doctor

I'm an anxiety and OCD therapist, so that's what I tell people to do to not do for a living is stop googling,

right?

But um I'm glad he did, I guess. And uh I actually just found that out like like a month ago that and so that had prompted him to really be motivated to get him into the next day to a pediatric eye specialist and they immediately sent us to the ER.

They knew what was going on.

Wow.

Yeah. And so neuroblastoma treatment is not um it's not easy. No cancer treatment is easy. What I have learned is it's very rigorous because you have to keep the cancer guessing. And so he's gotten every single cancer treatment in the books, not just like not just chemo or not just a surgery or not just a transplant, but he's gotten more than those three things that I just described within his journey and will continue to get it for um it's an 18-month protocol.

Okay.

Um so overall,

he has responded really well. um which I'm very grateful for and I'm you know he'll turn three right around the time maybe a little bit after is when he'll get to ring that cancer-free bell and let me tell you he will get a wedding- sized three-year-old birthday party.

I love it. Yeah. And I wanna I wanna you got to let us all know somehow some way honestly because listen no this is hard because you know we that's the resilience is the is the hope. It's the hope. It's the uh trust.

You got to trust the unknown. It is brutal. At the same time it is the surrendering right? You're surrendering to

to and that girl. Well, I don't know how you this. Okay, I know like right now you're in it, but to me it's like what I'm seeing it's like you're building already OCD and anxiety, right? These are the things what you're going through could cause it to rise to a place cuz I know like I'm a therapist, too.

So, we both know and right now it's like holy moly. We have to practice what we preach. We have to really take take these tools that we've learned in textbooks or wherever with experiences in community mental health and actually apply it every day.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. So, so tell me like

you know this is hard because I'm you know the part of me is being the professional podcast host and the therapist and then the part of me that's a mom of of four kids. My baby's 26 grandchildren, you know, and I'm sitting there like, "Okay, if I put myself too much in Christian shoes, I'm going to ball like a baby and I'm going to have to hang up."

Yeah.

You know, and then and then us um having to be this professional per because this is what we do. We go through stuff like this with others.

So, you tell you tell me

how are you doing this? what what are you doing like to really be able to, you know, to be the mom in crisis but be a therapist at the same time?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, to be honest, I think first and foremost, our training and our background has helped me a ton. Um, just yesterday I and this is only the beginning of it, but just yesterday, um, I had I just noticed all weekend long and it was kind of building in me that all the staff and they're so well-meaning, but like all the staff who's coming in is saying, "Good job.

Good job. Like, you're doing so good, buddy." And while they are doing really not nice things to him, while they are getting up in his space and breaking all of his boundaries, not giving him a chance to consent or say no and then respect it.

And one of the things that like because I'm a therapist, I know to, you know, to to advocate for him first of all, but second of all, um I just brought the nurse in there and I said, "Listen, I didn't hear you say this today, but I just would like for us to use a little bit of a different language for him.

I don't love that we praise him and say good job for allowing people to break his boundaries, allowing people to, you know, break his consent. Obviously, we have to do these things for his health. But I don't want him to grow up thinking that the way that he gets love or approval or whatever in this world is to be compliant, right?

Wow. I never even thought of that. Never. Are you writing this stuff down, Kristen? Because this is the This is the book. This is the book that you're going to be writing in the f Sorry. See,

I don't even have tissues. I don't even have tissues.

This is my eyeglass cleaner. Oh, I didn't know I was going to cry. Dang, people. Sorry. No, I'm not sorry. Really, I'm not.

This is how it is. You can hang up if you want to.

I mean, not you. Hopefully you don't, but I'm talking about the listener because listen, I know like it's it's probably like

hard because

yeah, I never even would have thought of that and you are thinking of these things like and you know how many parents don't understand that or don't know how they they feel that within their system and they don't know how to advocate like that.

Yeah. To articulate it. I think about that all the time honestly. um that you know things that I know because of my education, because of working with people every day, um the other parents just don't know. Um

and even if they do feel that within their system, within their body, that they don't know how to articulate it either. Um but I would also say that to answer your question beyond that, I think it's it's really just been perspective.

And I feel like you probably just very much get that um from your own story that when you're faced with this kind of challenge, trauma, possibility of mortality or worse mortality and um it's just something that you have a new perspective on life like that, you know, for example, like the reason I've been able to scale is because I no longer really deal with a fear of being seen or being like judged by what my therapist

his friends think of me in terms of how I'm building my business or you know what I'm doing with my life on social media or whatever.

Um because that's there's not that it because now I have been in this type of experience. I don't need to worry about that. that that's like such a drop in the bucket compared to the things that I now know is a reality for so many people on the same day that my my son like celebrated a huge milestone which was yesterday meaning um it we we found out that his transplant worked

um that it's you know took hold his body accepted it was the same day that I found out another little girl with the same type of cancer as my on was given a few months left to live. And when you have those stories and like that all weighing on your heart and so many emotions pulsating through your body in that way, there are things that just don't require your time and energy anymore.

Um, and honestly, I think that's what's helped me the most. that alongside of knowing that that kind of perspective is the perspective that I want to be modeling for my son who has cancer, for this little girl inside of me, for my three-year-old son, for my husband, um, and for our entire family, too.

I Yeah,

Kristen. And it's also you got to think about like what is happening personally, how it will overflow to you professionally and you've chosen to emotionally regulate and and these are words that people really are learning to understand what that means

because so many years it's like talk therapy, talk therapy, talk I'm a therapist, I can talk like this, you know, it's like and but emotional regulation like

what what does that actually look like? you know, not the raw the rawness of it. I know for me, listen, going through what I've gone through for years and and you know, I could be super immature, but what you're talking about, your priorities shifted, right?

You had to prioritize things. You were no longer this young uh just fresh out of college with, you know, like what you were talking about. We, you know, I had to go through it, too.

But all of a sudden this big thing happened and you had the choice to either retreat and let it consume you or you had to choose to be like okay no I have to now become strong enough and have the bandwidth to be able and it's not about being the superwoman because to me that whole mindset of this Americanized westernized mindset of poor women like you know that we we all go through of like

and then in my faith. The Proverbs 31 woman having to wake up early in the morning, all the way at night, sewing the clothes, doing the all this stuff and and women are silently um suffering in, you know, within themselves. And and I'm not trying to say this to put down men.

I know men have their issues because I work with men. It's just right now we're talking about, you know, the the boss lady this and that and having to do I want to say balance? I don't even know. Is it a balance? It's it's prioritizing really and and having resilience enough, Kristen.

Like what what do you do to emotionally regulate? You heard earlier that I walk three miles a day.

Yeah.

Three. I have to. That's that has taught me since COVID that that is how I got to get this anxiety moving out of my body. I do, right? I have to watch what I eat. I do.

And and caffeine. I cannot have caffeine past 12:00

and I don't drink coffee.

So, what do you do, Kristen, to to be able to handle everything that's coming to you?

Yeah. And I think what caught my attention is when you were kind of questioning like is it balance? And honestly that was something I was thinking about just last week and what I figured out is the term I would probably use is is like an integration.

Um, I actually wrote this on an email that had gone out this morning for my community. And you know what that integration has looked like for me has to do with both I have things that I do for my personal life that basically have nothing to do with work, although it very much translates to how I'm able to show up when I am working.

Um, and then others that are meant for meant for both my my work life, my therapist life, my business life, my family life, and then my me life. I I always have to think about like how am I showing up for me? And it's not just about how am I showing up for all these other people and things.

So, one of the things that I think has been really really pivotal for me um is having a slow morning, an unrushed morning. I used to schedule, you know, client sessions at 7 a.m. before I had kids. I learned that I could not do that as soon as I had kids.

But then I thought that, okay, like 8:30 is good enough. Still, definitely not. like I need time because I don't want my like my kids to feel rushed on a daily basis and I don't want to feel rushed on a daily basis. Having time like both before and after work to not have to when I get home from work feel like I don't have enough time to make dinner um and then have to rush play bath bed for my for my littles, right?

that I want I want time with them and I want maybe to like have a an experience where I can cook a little bit more slowly and like let them help me and not feel like I'm annoyed if them helping me means that it's slowed our process down.

I want them to be able to experience like that slowness. I think that's a big thing to your point about what you eat.

Um that's been huge for me as well. I notice that I have to eat like a very specific breakfast. It doesn't even look like a breakfast. Honestly, it's like ground beef, sweet potatoes, cauliflower, cherry tomatoes, and kale. And it's

I love that.

Yeah.

Wow, Kristen, that's cool. I mean, people think breakfast has to be this certain way because we've been infiltrated with too many flipping commercials since I was little with cereals and because breakfast, but yeah, why not have that for because that sounds like a dinner, too.

But who says that you cannot have dinner for breakfast?

Right. Right. And for me, it's the being able to get all of the protein and fiber in with like the, you know, the combination of meat and veggies, and I I I feel like I'm more alert. I can think better going into my day.

I stay full for longer.

Yeah.

Same thing with just how I eat throughout the rest of the day, too. I can very much notice when, you know, I had some French fries and not because I like I had French fries yesterday. I don't mind a good French fry. And it's just I can tell if I have that too often then it affects my energy levels, my mood, all of it.

Um

I also really love to move as well. I my my favorite form of movement is to lift weights and so that was what I did yesterday. Um you know I was in I was in the gym.

Um, and I think like one of the things, one of the bigger things finally would be what I would like to call um, identity journaling where I do, you know, you if you look at my I have a backpack down here and it's a little flower backpack and it has like five different notebooks in it.

Wow.

Because they're all separate. Um, you know, and so I have like a calendar that I like to keep up with, you know, tracking my time and auditing that. And it helps me understand like if I was having a rough week, did how I choose to spend my time impact that?

Um, I have another journal that is specifically for like my thoughts on cancer, my my ability to process, but I don't want my cancer journal in with my other journals because my other journal, for example, my identity journal is all about um really showing up as like the person that I want to be.

And that, you know, realistically in my identity journal, I am, for the lack of better ways of saying it, like near perfect. Like I it's it's not about like how I am actually showing up in my life. It's how I want to be showing up in my life.

And so

it's like a future what I'm hearing is and this makes sense what because to me I I don't I don't I don't journal like that. That's but I understand now like as you're talking is each journal has its specific caus like yeah and your identity journal is is giving you that hope for the future or your goals you're setting your goals to become that human

right and then the cancer journal is probably the grief

and everything you're learning and probably the cuz to me if I had that cancer which I should have had it I just went to therapy and let it all out on her. But but the cancer journal would be like a lot of grief, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, a lot of like sorry Lord, I love you very much, but cussing out God like because it's true.

Like you gota you got to let that stuff out and and it's important because that's what happens. I'm sure you see this Kristen when clients are bottling things up. it either will lash out on whoever is in the in their tribe or in their in their uh community or they will hurt themselves.

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You you need someplace to process those emotions. And for me, I process a lot of it in real time. So, I'm not afraid, you know, to be crying or show anger in front of like the staff at the hospital, for example. you know, if I'm Last night I was not happy with how the night nurse was handling things and I let her know what I needed from her.

Um, and so I I do feel very um open about showing whatever my emotions are and I don't try to hold back for the sake of people pleasing them because they're there to take care of my son. And um if I have emotions about that then, you know, and they aren't okay with that, they're probably in the wrong profession, right?

Um especially being in on the oncology floor.

But you know when then so then I process those emotions in real time and also have a space to like kind of document our journey and and that journal but then like the identity journal it could be you know my vision for how I show up as a leader in my group practice like that could be one day if that's where my mind is focused but then the other part is um you know my son at

one point in my journey in our journey with cancer he was intubated and um that those in those times my identity journal was very much focused on showing up as the mom that I want to be and having the thoughts of you know my son is going to come out of intubation and he's going to be okay and we're going to take him home and you know all of these things that I needed in that moment

because if I focused too much on what my fears were that would have paralyzed me right Yes.

Oh, yeah. Because fear, like we like to say, fear is a liar. And uh and to me, like I I tell my clients like, okay, it's false evidence appearing real, right?

And now we get to choose in therapy to face everything and rise fear either way, right? And so you're choosing to face everything and rise. And as you continue to do this, I I I need to know like how are you handling work?

You I mean I think it could be a dist because to me I know like I went to work right after all this stuff happened with my mom and my sister because my sister passed I would say uh almost two years ago and right and so my mom and so right after that I wanted to go to work.

I wanted to be busy. I needed to stay. I mean, I needed to like He's like, "Well, why don't you take a month off?" I'm like, "All right." And then, you know, two days in, I'm like, "I can't handle this anymore." Like, I need to because it's it's our personality.

It's a type A kind of boss lady personality in a way. Not that I'm I'm a boss of myself, but um how like how do you how how are you doing that? Because a group how many people do you have under you? I have four right now and we might be bringing on a fifth.

Okay. And do you like do you have an office manager and stuff like that or is it you? Okay. So, you're doing

Yep. No admin, no office manager right now.

I will say that in in an untraditional sense, I delegate a lot out to my therapist as part of their position. Um, and so for example, in the very beginning of them coming on, they are the ones who handle our phones, for example.

So, actually just last week, I had a meeting with the three newer therapists. Um, and they're all in charge of having a phone day and we came up with a system for, you know, like if it's your day and you know, there's there's a system behind it.

Um, and they do their consult calls. Um, and there are some other things that like I rely on them for, but I am like the person who can come in and I have my meetings. And for me, how I've handled this is really like I I have my whole goal with all of this has become to work part-time with full-time pay because, you know, one thing that I had like like researched into recently was that uh was the origin of the 40hour work week.

And

tell us a little about that. What did you learn? I was I was I loved I loved reading about it because I was like okay. Um so Henry Ford it originated with Henry Ford um in the factories because people were in men were incredibly overworked and this was a way to help uh reduce turnover long term turnover and burnout.

I don't think they were calling it back then, but uh turnover

and it was a like so the 40-hour work week was introduced eight hours a day, five days a week, and this is in the 1940s, I believed, I believe. And then anything beyond the 40 hours was overtime pay, which is still the structure of today.

That said, during that time frame, most people, most men who were working had someone at home full-time, likely a woman, the mother, um, with their kids. And so today in our modern world, I think there is this unwritten guilt, especially within the therapist community.

I'd say that it's, you know, there's messaging around like it's, you know, it could be unethical to make money or it could be um, you know, you just there's so much there's a lot of martyr messaging in the therapist community too. And so I was super intrigued reading that and then it kind of dawned on me that the guilt that we were experiencing or that I think often a lot of us maybe particularly women or particularly moms experience of wanting this vision.

Maybe they don't articulate it this way, but this vision of part-time hours with full-time pay, thinking that that means they're entitled because that was how I felt for a while, like if I want this, and by entitled like don't you need to be working, you know, 40 60 hours a week to like earn that kind of money.

Um, but realistically as we've evolved and our culture has evolved and now we as as women, we as moms are in the working field, there is nobody at home full-time.

No.

To manage your household, to manage your kids, to manage your your your, you know, the family schedule, um, cleaning all of that into a home.

And and I know quite a few stay-at-home moms. And I know, listen, I would say back when my son was little, there was a group called Mothers of Preschoolers MOPS that I coordinated here in my town. And what I did was meet on Saturdays on purpose because I come from a single immigrant working mom.

Okay. But I also understood the importance of I I was what I was hearing was the guilt of the stay-at-home mom not contributing. And anytime I hear a stay-at-home mom says, "Well, I don't work." I'm like, "Yeah, you do. you work.

Oh, 100% she works.

Okay. And but I'm trying to respect both the ones that are out at work doing the 40 50 80 at whatever their their career is and at the same time that the stay-at-home mom is doing work as well. And so it's I I try to bring them together to make them each understand because what I heard was guilt on both.

It was just pure guilt of being the martyr. What you're talking about, okay? or the we're only supposed to be nurses and teachers and helping professions,

right? And we're not supposed to think about money. Our our thing is just to help men do their thing.

Yeah. To be the the main provider. Yeah.

Right. And and I and if that is if you're listening to this and that's what's working for you, God bless you. Like good. I'm glad. I'm glad that's working for you. And and as you say, modern times now, it's like we're

I like I see it like we're trying to still and that's why I brought up the Proverbs 31 woman and it beautifully written and it's God's word the way I see it, you know, after studying it.

But I know that a many churches use that to make women I don't know how to explain it but it was not healthy to put too much on you know like you're you know that you're supposed to be these good little girls and and that's what I work with Kristen that's why I'm bringing it up like you do anxiety and OCD I work with a lot of women who come in who's had religious trauma and spiritual abuse and I'm helping them not deconstruct their faith but disentangle their faith.

Sure. Yeah. That's really powerful work,

you know, and so that 40hour work week that you're trying, you know, and and you want to work smarter, not harder and that guilt and it's also coming from community help because remember we go into this field many of us social workers and marriage family therapists, it's not about the money honestly, right?

It was never about the money. This is why many of us when we go into private practice don't know how to run a business. Mhm.

And so we're flailing around. So tell me what you do for for therapists now because you have shifted, right? And you start in your coaching therapist. What do you mean by that?

Yes. Yeah. And I think like real quick to go back to we have working moms and then we have stay-at-home moms. And that realistically I think the messaging that I hope is you know evolving over time would be that women and moms feel like they have the freedom to choose

what feels right for their family. Yeah.

Right. And what what feels right for them because a lot of moms do want to stay at home but then feel guilty because they're not contributing financially. And then

working moms who want to work um you know they they show up and then maybe they're wrestling with guilt around how much time they're spending with their kids. And so how can and that's why I really wanted to promote this idea of like maybe we can just find ways to work part-time so that we can have both worlds but not have to sacrifice that income because not every family is privileged enough to be able to sacrifice their income.

Like if people need a dual income home or if they're a single parent or what have you. Um you know that's not always a choice. And so

what I what I'm doing with therapist moms now is I do a lot of um onetoone work at this time. I think that will expand once we're past cancer treatment. Just um there's logistics that are involved in terms of being a caregiver that can sometimes limit um you know what you can commit to

within your work because my schedule is always changing. in two weeks after he gets discharged, I won't know what my schedule is and it's not going to be my choice. Um, and so

with that being said, um,

working with them onetoone, a lot of my a lot of moms that I'm working with right now are in an agency or group practice or something where they are not currently working for themselves and they want to inch out of that and get into private practice.

Um, but they are fearful of if a lot of my moms are single moms and they're they are the sole provider and so how do I do that in a way that still brings security to my family and to my kids. Um, so some of my moms have recently um like quit well dropped down from working full-time to part-time and they've built their part-time private practice and that's gone so much better than they thought it was going to.

And so now they're really being able to kind of envision um that full-time. And for other moms that I'm working with, it's helping them to scale into a group practice. But I do think group practice has gotten a lot of messaging in and of itself where I think sometimes the messaging is that you're going to work more and earn less than what you did in private practice.

And it doesn't have to be that way, but it just has to be set up correctly.

That's what I'm that's what I'm hearing. It's knowing the system and you figured out a system that actually has worked and so people can hire you to to you give them the system, right? Or the the tools or the practical steps to be able to That's that's wonderful.

Like I don't think I'm I'm at a I'm at retirement age, honestly, Kristen. That's where I'm at.

I mean, it's because I I married an older man and he's like uh I'm like, "No, now you're dealing with me finally. the kids are out like I I got freedom to do my work because before like you said Kristen I was balancing I was working part-time trying to be home and it is a hard thing try it's integrating love that word integrating balancing integrating and and just figuring out what my because every family is very

unique and every family has different needs and that's okay there is no to me what what I see a coach do because I you know I have my own um psycho educational training is what I call for other things like health and wellness and stuff.

It is is I got tools that worked. I've done a lot of research. I'm the shortcut for the person so they don't have to sit there and spend two decades figuring it out, right? And it's worked. So it's the same for someone. So it's moms who are therapists, correct?

Is it uh worldwide? Is it just citywide? How does that work? Like anybody can call you or like how do they get a hold of you if they want to work with you?

Yeah. Um so I guess it would be worldwide. I um I haven't really thought about that yet, but

this is what you're going to put in your journal after we hang up. Okay. And that

Yes. Yes. Um but yeah, I guess it could be worldwide. It uh definitely is is nationwide. I have uh I'm in Arizona and I have a lot of clients in the East Coast for an example. And basically um I am on Instagram at therapreneurm mother.

Um and so you know I could just because that's like a little bit of a wordy hard to spell thing. I could make sure you have that for for

it'll be in the show notes. Don't worry I'll I find everything and and you sent me your all your information. So okay. So that is that the main um what you're trying to grow. Are you scaling your group practice too? I mean because these are two different things I'm hearing.

Yep. Very two different things. Um so I am in my group practice. I have four therapists currently and I am looking at a fifth. I just um interviewed somebody last week. I'm once that fifth position is filled, I will plan to coast for a while in my group practice specifically.

Um we just moved into a beautiful new office space and um that fifth office will be our last office that we fill and that way I can really focus on uh focus on helping to transform the group practice from an internal perspective. So, we're going to plan to launch groups in the fall and now that we have our team really understand what our mission is beyond one-to-one work within our community.

So, that's kind of my focus for the group practice in months in the years to come. Um, and then from from um my coaching perspective, definitely something that I hope to scale and grow over time as well.

And so, like I said, right now because my son's in cancer treatment and because I have a baby on the way in three months, um I'm offering one to one now, but next year um I have something some some things in mind that will will launch um you know, either in January or March or next year.

Um but yeah, the Instagram at theurmother is the probably the main way to kind of like follow my work and learn. I do have um a a free part-time hours to full-time pay uh playbook or guide that I could send to your community too if they were interested um to kind of just like see the behind the scenes around like the pillars of how I've done it so far.

Um and we have some other things um that are in the works in terms of free uh free content, free

yeah resources and stuff.

Free resources.

So is that on your website? Um, I actually don't have a website right this second, but on my Instagram I have um I have like a link where they can find all of this stuff. like they can click the link and be able to access that free guide or access my I have like a newsletter that goes out weekly that talks about things like learning about where the 40-hour week came from or the fact that like mom brain is actually your best asset to um

step into your entrepreneurial role um as a woman as a therapist um as as a business woman um

there's a lot of correlations that

you know are kind of like Oh, you have membrane. That must mean you're forgetful.

But what that really has meant is that we've freed up some gray space to focus on what really matters. um and can help us to zone in on our goals and what we need from our life and be creative in that way versus um only focusing on the fact that like for example for me I lost my AirPod several times this month or I accidentally I'm since six months pregnant walked out of Target and forgot to pay I went back in but um

but that I do think those you know those mom brain like qualities have also been my building blocks for scaling my business so quickly.

Wow, man. Listen, I wish I kn knew that back in the day, you know, 27 years ago about mom brain. Like, you know, mom brain and then it goes into then you have the kids and then it goes into the hormonal thing and then you got brain fog.

And it's like, do do we ever catch a break from our menes to menopause? Like honestly, right? I mean, but that's that's the resiliency that we do have is is understanding and and what I heard you say earlier is becoming like that curious observer of yourself like you you you take ownership of you and you realize because you gotten to know yourself so well, right?

And that's that's important, whoever is listening, that's super important because sometimes we do walk around the mom brain or the brain fog or the hyper vigilance and our brains are on fire and we're on constantly and then we're popping off and we don't understand why.

And that's the beginning is taking the one tiny step to to just say, "Okay, let me practice the pause and take a deep breath. No matter what's coming at me right now, whatever saber-tooth tiger is at my door.

Yeah. How can we slow down?

How can we slow down? And in in my faith, we call that trying to go from Martha to Mary

where we sit we sit at the feet of Jesus.

I know that story. Yes.

Yeah. And so it's like learning how to understand that nobody is perfect because even we can Kristen and I can have every flipping tool book read, learn about everything and we still are human beings.

That's why we need each other and that's why we need to continue to learn and understand and grow and become more and more resilient because you know staying frozen in that you know freeze fawn uh the the four fs sorry see I just got menopause brain fod mommy brain grandma brain let's call it grandma brain

yep flight fight freeze or fawn

yeah So, you know, is there any tools or books or resources that you use a lot in your practice? Um, not only for yourself maybe, but for your clients?

Yeah, that is a good question. Um, I'm trying to think kind of quickly here.

I I think for myself, I use a lot of I use a lot of podcasts. I I follow a lot of podcasts who promote this idea that both are possible, that we can be regulated human beings who feel grounded and lit up by our lives and still be an incredibly great mom to our kids and, you know, have our own identity.

And if work is a part of that for you, if building a business is part of that for you, um then you get to have all of them.

Um so yeah, I actually so I do really love uh entrepreneurial therapist. She's she's actually my business coach and her name is Danielle Swim. I I follow her. Um Yep. And then um she actually just shut it down, but I have recently um loved listening to Empower Her podcast by Kesha Got Mary.

Um I think she just

her main thing is like I think she shows that part of us that gets to decide like like change our minds and pivot and we don't always have to like stick with one thing. Um, and you can be who you are, be authentic to yourself, and um, build something that is within your wheelhouse and something that you feel really confident in.

Um, I follow a millionaire mother who kind of shows that world of both are possible. Um, and then I really also, um, I think her podcast is called Moms Set, but from a from a mom perspective, Tessa Romero, um, is her Instagram handle, and I'm in her mom community.

Um, and she has just like excellent, um, just such excellent resources and mindset. Honestly, she's been a big part of how I've how I've learned to handle my son's cancer diagnosis and still have the mindset that I do. Um, she's been a big part of that, I would say.

Um, Tessa Mero and she's a she's a woman of faith and she that's where her she talks about the Martha and Mary story a lot as well. Um, so yeah. So

cool. You just turned me on to a bunch of and I'm I'm a pot because to me like I could read books. I'm reading a book now called The Practice by Seth Goden.

Okay. Yeah.

Which my business coach said, okay, it was our last thing. He's like, "Okay, before I go, start reading this book." And I'm and I'm understanding because it's basically giving me a kick in the butt to stop, you know, because we get analysis paralysis and and then we don't move forward doing the thing.

And so it's the way he put it, it's very creative. So I'm reading that. But I'm a podcast because I like in my walks, that's what I do. I listen to podcasts every day and it's just easy when you're driving or when you know it's just keeping I don't ever watch or listen to music.

My my kids and my grandkids think I'm great. Like they're just like Leita like what's wrong with you? You don't like music? I'm like no I rather learn but I've always been that person. Like I like to educate myself and learn more and more.

Um yeah, thanks. I'm going to put all those in the show notes, the ones that you mentioned. That's great because I've never heard of any of them except for the one I found you on.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. And I'm sure there are books, too. I just like I feel like that is something I would have to be like, "Oh, I have to think about that a little bit more." But those I like I look out for their their episodes weekly and like I like as you said, just as a as a busy mom, it's kind of like it's just so easy to digest um podcast episodes and so

Right. And you could stop it and pause it. And sometimes I'll sit there with my notebook and write down notes of what I'm learning

and stuff too. Okay, cool. And so what do you have? Okay, so to find you to to coach a therapist, it's on Instagram, but if somebody is in Arizona that wants to hire you as a therapist, how do they do that?

Yeah. Um, yes. And also at Chris Kristenneurmother would be my email address if that's easier for somebody. um to get a hold of me that way. As far as my practice goes, we definitely are accepting new clients right now. Um and our website is called outsmartingoccd.com.

And what we do is help um we have therapists for all different ages. So we can have we have a therapist who works with birth up um you know through 18. We have somebody who can work with young adults, uh, teens and adults and then even into older adult years and all centered around anxiety and OCD.

So, um, any type A lot of times I get questions about what kind of OCD do you help and

any type of OCD because our therapist specialist,

right?

Um, yeah. And honestly, there are

more.

There are so many more that like yeah, people just kind of aren't aware of. And honestly, how I think about it from an OCD perspective is if you have OCD, you have OCD. And it's we can kind of get away from the type a little bit that the type really is meant to help us be able to relate and put language to it and maybe not feel so alone because another person has the same theme as you.

But realistically, OCD can take on any manifestation that it it chooses to. Um, that's kind of like how it works in its beast of a mind of of its own.

And um and then from an anxiety perspective, what we would call complex anxiety, so separation anxiety, um social anxiety, uh phobias, panic disorder, so having panic attacks for no reason, agorophobia where we're afraid to leave our house, um any type of anxiety that is a little like we it's not that we can't help generalized anxiety where, you know, we're working on things that um are kind of like in front of us in our everyday life like um relationships and the f worries about the future, things like that.

Um but we would just say that our probably our primary specialty is anxiety that kind of falls under those types.

Yeah. The ones that have gone past the symptom, the ones that are really diagnosible DSM because to me like I try people come and I'm like, "Well, who told you that?" or you just tick tocked yourself, you know, like and you just diagnosed yourself because you're thinking and and to me anxiety and depression are symptoms of numerous situations.

But what she's talking about is the diagnosible ones, the ones that people actually are super suffering with like the I mean the washing of the hands, the locks, the aggrophobia of like the fear of there's so many different fears and that anxiety that has

paralyzed you to a place you can't even function or go on social media. That's what she's talking about people like. So I want to make sure

we disentangle things.

Yes.

Because absolutely you know working with you I don't work with teenagers anymore but working with teenagers they're like oh I have and I'm like who told you that? Oh you know I told my mom and you know we could now we could spend a whole other hour in in that

department in that area. But but I I wanted to come on because I wanted you to tell your story because I know that somebody might be listening going through their own dark valley feeling so lonely in that space because when something like that is dropped on your lap out of nowhere, you know, like that changes your whole perspective on life.

It makes you grow up so quickly. It makes you realize, okay, like now I really have to like take everything I have to function in this world. Not only because I need to function and survive, but I I'm also responsible for so much.

So if someone is listening right now in their own dark valley, what would be something you want them to hear from you? And not as a clinician, but as as a fellow human being. Mhm. I just want you to know that while it might feel like others who are in a similar situation as you have it all together, that we all have our moments and that we all have our emotions and our fears and things that feel very paralyzing at time.

I know that's been true for me. I could sit here and, you know, talk about all of my deepest fears that um are centered around my child living with cancer right now. And that those this might sound slightly therapisty, but I it's coming from a human place where like that can coexist for you, right?

like that we can have be humans who have all of these emotions going on that can have really bad days where you don't want to talk to anybody or you don't want to see anybody or you're angry at everybody. Um, and still have this other lit up I want to live my life part of you.

Um, and I think that that's what's been most helpful for me is knowing that both can be true. Um, yeah,

it can because we are made with all those emotions. It's just learning how to utilize them in a way that's going to benefit your you and others and you know what I mean like instead of being stuck in them. It's that's why sematically moving it is very important.

That's why taking care of the hundred trillion cells more or less I don't know but I know they're trillions of cells that want to love you right and sometimes we think about like why why would creator or god or whatever what whoever you call the something that's bigger than us what allow this stuff to happen why would why would something like this be allowed to happen to a child,

you know, and I know I had to walk with people not just with cancer, but think about sexual abuse or something like that. And honestly, I don't I don't it's sometimes things are a mystery, but I do know that finding community is really important.

Listening to stories like this and writing your own story, cuz every one of us have one. every one of us, no matter what it is. And you're not alone. So, Kristen, I just want to let you know, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me for being raw about your your son. And I know my community hopefully the ones that pray will be praying for you. I know I will be. And please let us know how things and I'll be of course following you on

social media. And you know listener I I don't because sometimes I get overwhelmed with my own own emotions and um like I said I'm a normal human being. Well, normal. I don't know. People question that. But um as a human, a fellow human, I just want to let you know that sometimes we might be angry at God.

And that's okay because we his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. And it goes beyond how we can think because the second we think that we know exactly what something that's higher and bigger than us, then we become God ourselves. and I don't ever want to have that because I'm not God.

So, just remember to trust in the Lord, guard your heart, and please renew your mind. Kristen, thank you for being here. Bye.

Thank you so much, Diana. And now for the disclaimer to make sure you understand that you are responsible for you. The content provided on the Holistic Counselor podcast is for entertainment,formational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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